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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#221

Post by jitbit »

pawelk wrote: post #148
jitbit wrote: post #66

While I do agree with the point that "govs should fix taxes, not corporations"... Still. It's a fact that (at least in the EU where I live) the majority of tax burden ends up on small companies - mom & pop shops, little bakeries etc. Who simply can't afford these global tax avoidance tricks (or can't use them because they're "local") Not that this is wrong or right, just a fact you can't argue with. I run a small sof…

So I live in Poland and it's not really a secret that small companies can and do optimize their taxes by registering in the UK (mostly self-employed professionals) or Czech Republic (small companies / family businesses). It's not like you can avoid taxes, but the difference for a self-employed programmer is non-trivial, like getting a 13th monthly salary every year. The Czech deal is done mostly for simpler tax code…

Yes, I know the UK drill... But how do you hire someone in Poland being a UK company? I thought that's not possible

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#222

Post by orwin »

golergka wrote: post #172
orwin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, i feel its moral for me to pay all my taxes, and even though i also give money to charity, i don't use this fact to reduce my taxes, because i feel a lot of people need this money way more than me. This is socialism.

No, this is either personal choice over your own property, (which is charity), or irrelevant - your feelings over taxes don't matter, you don't get to choose whether to pay the taxes or not. Socialism is forcing your choice on other people's property through the only organization that has monopoly on violence in today's society - government.

But i could choose to pay less taxes, and i don't. Honestly i'm pretty happy with socialism right now, i lived in the bottom 20% for 23 years and still got to go to the hospital to get surgery at 3 y/o, my little brother did not die from his appendicite and my mother breast cancer was detected before it spread too much. I never suffered from malnutrition and access to free education allowed me to get into the top 20% with no debts while attending social gathering and studying in other countries thanks to erasmus.

I agree that i don't have the choice on what my taxes will be used for, and this is a problem, but the other choice is to count on charity? to pray that everybody will act like homo economicus and take rationnal decision on how to improve everybody well-being without being greedy and acting like children? Sicilian orphanage is what you get when "charity" is in charge. I'd rather pay taxes and have the state manage that tbh.

Now if someday, everybody become smart and decent enough, i would totally agree with you to ditch socialism et start a liberal anarchy.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#223

Post by juandazapata »

DoctorPenguin wrote: post #65

That really hurt to read. What I get from this article is: "I use apple products every day and now I feel bad for using them. But I won't stop anyways because who cares really. Please do anything to make your company less profitable so I can feel better again."

Read again DoctorPenguin, you might understand the message this time.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#224

Post by nickpp »

eecc wrote: post #202
nickpp wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monopolies are granted by governments. The free market has a natural solution to monopolies, it's called competition - startups. Big Cos will always lobby governments to add rules and regulation to raise the barrier of entry on their market and thus reduce competition. They, in fact, buy their monopoly from the government. Solution? Take away the government's ability to grant monopolies.

"The free market has a natural solution to monopolies, it's called competition - startups." Please provide proof that markets never fail and indeed that the ideal Free Market exists. Take the time, I'll wait...

Sorry, I can't. I am a working man, not a philosopher.

But please look around you. Every great thing around me was created by a free(-ish) market: this PC, my car, my job, the materials in my home, the heating engine, the food I get in the restaurant, the entertainment on my TV, everything.

Then every crappy experience in my existence has something to do with the government: state hospitals, infrastructure, the DMV and other bureaucratic institutions, my and my children's schools.

I tend to judge systems by their results and so far the free market seems to produce much better results.

I don't think anybody can argue for a world without governments, but not to the point at which they stifle the free market. And I am afraid that is the direction we are generally taking.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#225

Post by barrkel »

wjnc wrote: post #62
barrkel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, should Apple start selling cigarettes if that raises the profit rate? Perhaps move into prostitution in countries where it is legal? Legality is a red herring.

Apple could certainly do that. Prostitution is legal in many jurisdication. They can go for any market they want. But in the Peter Drucker-line of the argument, that is a false flag. This is a nice example of philosophy of law. Usually morality and legality overlap pretty much and follow each other over time. In this case (tax) morality and legality seem to grow apart over time without anyone fixing this. Since gover…

Since governments make the rules, I propose let governments fix the rules.

I agree. Which means that opinion pieces (what ought) cannot be argued against using legal arguments (what is).

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#226

Post by tluyben2 »

pawelk wrote: post #148
jitbit wrote: post #66

While I do agree with the point that "govs should fix taxes, not corporations"... Still. It's a fact that (at least in the EU where I live) the majority of tax burden ends up on small companies - mom & pop shops, little bakeries etc. Who simply can't afford these global tax avoidance tricks (or can't use them because they're "local") Not that this is wrong or right, just a fact you can't argue with. I run a small sof…

So I live in Poland and it's not really a secret that small companies can and do optimize their taxes by registering in the UK (mostly self-employed professionals) or Czech Republic (small companies / family businesses). It's not like you can avoid taxes, but the difference for a self-employed programmer is non-trivial, like getting a 13th monthly salary every year. The Czech deal is done mostly for simpler tax code…

Is that setup legal over there? It is not in the EU countries I know about; the UK company would be seen as a defacto company in the country you actually reside and do the work (Poland for instance), unless;

If you don't mind travelling then you can, very cheaply, pay very little to no tax being a small company. In many countries it is legal to do so.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#227

Post by chrisper »

pawelkomarnicki wrote: post #199
svennek wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don't forget that those are third-rate (more like fourth-rate) countries, almost undeveloped brutes... (as an EU-citizen)

We don't even pay for our health bills in Germany when leaving a doctor's office ;-)

Hold on! You have to pay 10 euros or so every year or no? I remember there was an outcry many years ago!

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#228

Post by urza »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Rich people and corporations will never pay full taxes. The only way to make it fair is to lower taxes for everyone.

EDIT: downvote me all you like, but the facts and all human history are on my side. Taxes are and always have been paid mostly by poor + middle class. Rich people used to collect them and now have a ways to negotiate a better deals or to avoid them. Look at Trump and his loans schemese. Look at multinational corporations. Look at our local oligarchs in eastern Europe. If you are in middle class, your only hope is to fight for more fair society where tax hells dont exists, and taxes are low for everyone. Because high taxes will never be paid by everyone.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#229

Post by eru »

dontreact wrote: post #177
cm2187 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All they are doing is arbitraging loopholes in the tax systems. Politicians have been trying to solve way too many problems by taxes (taxing differently x and y) or giving tax gifts to donors and various organised interests. As a result it creates an arbitrage-able tax system. I wouldn't point your annoyance to those who are optimising their taxes (after all this is merely their fiduciary duties to their share holder…

I think you are fundamentally missing the nature of the loopholes being exploited. They have less to do with the complexity of the taxes in one country but rather the complexity that emerges naturally from different countries having different tax codes. How would a flat tax help avoid this scheme for example?: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/28/business/Doubl... The whole point is they skip the U.S. tax co…

There are taxes that are harder to skip than others. (At the risk of sounding like a broken record, land value taxation is basically impossible to avoid if you are using land.)

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#230

Post by [deleted] »

repomies691 wrote: post #219
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

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