Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin is fiat money, too

economist.com

221–230 of 355 posts

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#221
post #192
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roger Ver, who ironically for this thread is a crypto currency investor, renounced his US citizenship to avoid paying taxes and was repeatedly denied entry into the US afterwards. He will most likely never be able to visit his family in the US again.

If you're rich enough, you can fly your family and friends out to any tropical paradise whenever you want. No need for you to visit the US unless you have a strong emotional attachment to some specific location.

if you are rich enough you can also just pay taxes and keep a passport that allows visafree travel mostly anywhere and not have to force people to fly to a different country to see you.

Its a fun thought experiment for sure but ultimately if you're at the level of wealth that running from the taxman gets you huge gains, either you have other problems (like being some sort of druglord) or you have enough money to also just pay taxes

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#222
post #201

Can you actually spend Bitcoin in physical stores outside of the Bay Area? Bitcoin just seems like an investment vehicle/security rather than a currency. How many people actually use Bitcoin for buying toilet paper?

Bitflyer (Japan) has partnerships with bic camera (electronics store like best buy) to offer Bitcoin payments. Though I believe you cannot use it for over $1000 purchases

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#223
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must live in: Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire or Oregon. (Or be oblivious) States where the sale of a cup of coffee doesn't involve a tax.

When you grow up and have kids (ie you aren’t 11 anymore) you may appreciate things like schools, safe roads, etc... that come with those sales tax dollars instead of viewing it as totalitarian expropriation.

Personal attacks are not allowed on HN. We ban accounts that do this, so please read the rules (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and don't do it again.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#224
> They made transactions easier, and in the process created new deposits and bills that increased the supply of money.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding that the whole article is based on, in my opinion. Let me clarify.

Gold and silver were money in this time period. Deposits receipts and bills of exchange are neither gold nor silver. They are derivatives, because they derive their value from allegedly being redeemable in gold/silver. Now, someone issuing either of these derivatives may very well be tempted to issue fraudulent notes (where “fraudulent” is defined as “no means or intent to repay in gold/silver), which is where the wonderful idea of “default” comes in.

When a company is unable to honor its liabilities, it’s in default, and its assets are distributed amongst its creditors. So a private company (e.g. certificate of deposit-issuer, bill of exchange-issuer), and therefore its assets, is forcefully liquidated when it can’t live up to its promises. This is the solution to the problem. As long as we allow the process of default, and forced liquidation, the. if a company makes promises it can’t hold, it dies and disappears from the market.

So, treating issuers of money-derivatives as regular private companies gives its creditors the ability to force it into liquidation, in case it’s unable to honor its promises. Except when government grants special privilege to private companies called “banks”, and make them exempt from living up to their promises. It’s an understandable reaction from government: short term gain (no turmoil from default), but a long term pain (private companies with government-granted freedom to issue fraudulent derivatives).

Capitalism doesn’t work without recognizing the essential function of the death of a private company. This is the killer feature of capitalism: let unproductive/downright fraudulent companies die, and hand over their assets to its stakeholders.

As long as we recognize deposit receipts, bills of exchange, etc. as simply a promise, and are willing to keep issuers honest, by being able to force default on the company if it can’t live up to its promises, derivatives and money are clearly separated. And no one can “increase the supply of money” by producing derivatives that are allegedly redeemable in this monetary unit, any more than someone can “increase the supply of oil” by issuing and selling oil futures contracts.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#225
post #190

Fundamentally, Bitcoin is software eating the Fed-Bank-Retail ecosystem. The Fed governance is replaced by code. The banking utility is replaced by miners. I think the march of bitcoin is actually a better example of how AI is taking over the world. People in AI are fascinated by AGI - but the bitcoin ecosystem is actually a real world example of how AI will take over the world. Specifically, the march of AI won't ha…

> But there are countries in Africa who can already do better by simply leapfrogging to bitcoin and ditching their national currencies.

I doubt this would do any good for them.

* Their currency would be totally exposed to 3rd parties.

* They would loose the control over the rates, which are an important tool to attract investments, if are stable and controlled well.

* AFAIK some chineese private companies control large part of the mining network. Basically the central bank would be in private, and foreign hands.

* The slow transactions would make it totally infeasable for use in everyday life, aspecially as people there have limited access to necessary technologies (stable network connections all round the contries, stable elecric power everywhere), so daily transactions of the ordinary people would either fall back to barters, or use some fiat paper money, eg. USDs.

I totally don't get how could you reach tis conclusion, your whole post is a SV bubble wishful thinking with some trendy bullshit, eg. software eating the FED, fed is replaced by code. Bitcoin does better than centralbanks. If some currency looses 30% of its value a single day, that is not a sign of health, and this happended the very week with bitcoin. Actually Bitcoin does its job worse than an african dictatorship's currency, if its job is being a fiat currency, which is useful for the people in daily life.

I doubt its job is that, so it may do its job well, but for this task it is unsuitable.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#226
post #190

Fundamentally, Bitcoin is software eating the Fed-Bank-Retail ecosystem. The Fed governance is replaced by code. The banking utility is replaced by miners. I think the march of bitcoin is actually a better example of how AI is taking over the world. People in AI are fascinated by AGI - but the bitcoin ecosystem is actually a real world example of how AI will take over the world. Specifically, the march of AI won't ha…

it's great that no government is doing the fiat. That by itself is reason enough.

Let me rephrase this for you:

It's great that some Chinese private entrepreneurs (connected with the intelligence services or not) are doing the fiat. That by itself is reason enough.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#227
And since fiat money at the end of the day is a question of trust thats exactly right. It just doesn't mean what the economist want it to mean. It just means, hey there is now another trusted currency.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#228
Definition of fiat

1 :a command or act of will that creates something without or as if without further effort According to the Bible, the world was created by fiat. 2 :an authoritative determination :dictate a fiat of conscience 3 :an authoritative or arbitrary order :decree government by fiat

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, only since August 15, 1971 here in the USA. Not "always."

No. Before 1971 dollars were backed by Gold, now they are backed by US Tbills (and some real-estate since 2008). It's not that different. Gold and US TBills are both valuable assets.

No, he is right.

What the OP meant by creating money out of nothing was fiat currency, which we do have now.

If you decide to use a commodity also as money, that's fundamentally different, and econ textbooks can confirm this for you.

T-Bills are backed by fiat currency, not by a commodity.

The Fed, and also the banks through fractional reserve banking, genuinely do create "money out of nothing."

Check out A Monetary History of the US by Milton Friedman and Anna Schwarz. Here you will find a Nobel Prize winning econonist who wanted to dramatically reign in, or even end, the Fed and get rid of fractional reserve banking.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#230
post #145

Had a chat with a high ranking public tax official last week who said that the age of secret offshore bank accounts is over - mass leaks resulting from bounties mean that any rogue employee with a USB of account information can get a 7 figure payout from major goverments. So where to now for high net worth people/families? I would absolutely be piling my wealth into anonymous cryptocurrencies - zcash, monero, and wel…

The problem is getting the money out. Two issues : fundamentally you suddenly have a large amount of unexplained wealth, if you imagine that state authorities will shrug, smile and nod good luck to you think again. It is possible to use the money as a supplement to a middle class lifestyle and to find ways to get it laundered, but the first tactic is disappointing for people who wanted hot and cold running champaign on their yacht, and the second is very expensive and risky. The second big issue is that no amount of tumbling is really going to launder bitcoin, yes, you mixed it up with other people's tokens, but $4m came into the tumbler and $3m left in your direction, no court will fall for this... Just as if you put $4m in a bank account and then walked away with $3m from a different account at the same bank, the money followed you.
Post reply on HN