We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong • Hacker News Board

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#221

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

westiseast wrote: post #186

joekrill wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense to you personally, but it's kind of disconcerting that this is the top comment. You've outright admitted to only having "used to run a bit" -- and not very much, at that. But then go on to promote barefoot running as if you're somehow a fully qualified expert who knows enough to talk on the matter and declare barefoot running is _clearly_ the answer. I'm not saying you're wrong or right. This shoed/barefoo…

I agree. Evidence out there seems to suggest that trainers are bad by overcushioning the feet or placing the body in a bad position, but... For example, I'm sure our neolithic ancestors ran long distances because they had to. There's nothing implicit in this about whether it's good for us, and we don't know how many of them got eaten or died because they had bum knees!

[deleted]

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#222

Post by dahart » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #216

dahart wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people aren't even breathing correctly What's the correct way to breathe? Isn't not dying "correct"?

LOL, perhaps in its most basic form. Do you breathe using your chest or your stomach? How deeply? At what cadence? Through your nose, or through your mouth? All of these things really matter when learning to run comfortably.

I'm curious how it matters, can you be more specific? You didn't answer the question, what is the "correct" way to breath? What bad things happen if you don't breathe correctly, aside from passing out or dying? You'd have to be consciously trying to not breathe for that to happen, right? If there's discomfort, what adjustments am I making naturally that might be "incorrect"? What about breathing is so non-obvious that it requires training and not instinct?

I run a lot, and I normally don't have to think about breathing. If I need more air, I breathe faster or deeper without thinking about it. My cadence very naturally goes at a multiple of my stride, because it's more comfortable. I breathe through my nose sometimes and through my mouth sometimes. The deciding factor is usually whether my mouth is dry or there's a lot of dust in the air. I rarely notice which. Both my nose and mouth are holes in my face that facilitate getting air into my lungs, so I'm not getting why there's something "correct" about using one or the other?

What does this notion that there's a "correct" way to breathe have to say about normal variations in human physiology, e.g. larger/smaller lungs, skinny vs heavy, larger/smaller sinuses, mild asthma, etc.?

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#223

Post by throwanem » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

ForRealsies wrote: post #190

rimliu wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chat with people. Say hello. Make eye contact. > Exercise the social skills that help you make > unplanned interactions mutually enjoyable. But please, do not do it with me. I love walking and long walks (just this month I've done three ~40km walks). I fully agree with a few of your points (like keeping phone and earbuds away), but why does not concept of consent apply to chat? When I am walking it is kind of medit…

>"Unplanned interactions" is very annoying thing Most on HN would find the most fulfillment in improving their social muscle, not their calves.

Improving your calves is not nothing, though. Every day is leg day when you commute by foot!

(Now if only it were so effective for one's core and upper body...)

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#224

Post by erikpukinskis » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 5:30 PM UTC

MagnumOpus wrote: post #147

erikpukinskis wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In reality, it's just that's when the body begins to wear down and people naturally want to blame it on something so we invented a euphemism for it. The body "wearing down" is not a thing. You're talking about repetitive stress injuries. The body is built to work as long as you need it to, and replenish itself daily.

> The body "wearing down" is not a thing... The body is built to work as long as you need it to This is so obviously wrong that I wonder if you are deliberately trolling. You can just look at wrinkling skin, decreased peak performance and all the other pieces of evidence that the regerative abilities of the body degrade after age 30-40. Or you can look at the thousands of papers in the areas of cellular senescence an…

> wrinkling skin

A.K.A. sun damage

> decreased peak performance

Peak performance happens once. That's a mathematical truth. Just because something isn't operating at peak performance doesn't mean it's "worn down"

> all the other pieces of evidence...

There's lots of evidence that people acquire damage throughout their life. And I would certainly agree that as you approach 100 years old, the repairing slows down.

I'm just saying someone who is in their 50s and saying their body has "worn down" is not in that situation. They damaged their body. If you're 80 years old it's a different story.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#225

Post by orn688 » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 5:36 PM UTC

Raidion wrote: post #196

joekrill wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense to you personally, but it's kind of disconcerting that this is the top comment. You've outright admitted to only having "used to run a bit" -- and not very much, at that. But then go on to promote barefoot running as if you're somehow a fully qualified expert who knows enough to talk on the matter and declare barefoot running is _clearly_ the answer. I'm not saying you're wrong or right. This shoed/barefoo…

Maybe I can chime in here, I've been running competitively through HS, College, and some marathons after. Barefoot running is only revolutionary to some people because it correctly aligns the incentives to have proper form. If you're barefoot/vibram running with proper form, you'll pretty much instantly feel all this discomfort of the impacts in your heel, knee, and back. This discomfort doesn't exist when you're in…

+1 on the Kinvara. I'm a current college XC runner, and I've been running in the Kinvaras (many different versions) for 5 years now. I've found that the low weight makes a big difference, allowing you to run with a higher cadence and thus with shorter, lighter strides, reducing impact forces and generally improving form.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#226

Post by PhasmaFelis » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 6:14 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #64

rosser wrote: post #9

The Fine Article doesn't really go into how we're doing it wrong, beyond a passing mention of barefoot running, and some dissing of treadmills (which is hyperbolic and orthogonal to reality; you can run "correctly" or "badly" on a treadmill or on the street or trail). I used to run a bit. Did an informal "couch to 5k" over a couple of months, before I'd even discovered that was a thing. The single most effective thin…

TL;DR, the gist of the "wrong" is that we've been trained by "trainers" (over-padded athletic shoes) to run in a straight-legged, heel-lands-first manner. Any reputable running clinic will teach you to make contact with the ground at the middle of your foot with a slightly bent knee. That's just well understood, proper technique, regardless of footwear. The real problem is people hitting the pavement without learning…

Most people don't go to running clinics, because there's no obvious reason to assume that you need to be taught how to do something that you've been doing just fine since you were three. It's extremely counterintuitive, and I don't think you can really blame most people for getting it wrong.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#227

Post by exhilaration » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 6:57 PM UTC

nostromo95 wrote: post #82

freshhawk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the barefoot/minimal part was not the focus of what we are doing wrong (I only run in Vibrams, it's plainly much better but you have to start incredibly slow and work up to it). His point about what we're doing wrong was treating it as a speed based sport or a chore to do to be healthy, with a bunch of gadgets to mediate the experience, when it should be a relaxing, fun meditative practice where you disconn…

>I only run in Vibrams, it's plainly much better Let me know the next time you see Asbel Kiprop, Eliud Kipchoge or Evan Jager wearing a pair of those.

I Googled the first name you posted and he also appears to be wearing minimalistic shoes, looks like Nike Frees?

http://www.all-athletics.com/files/imagecache/photos_big/pho...

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#228

Post by nogbit » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 8:06 PM UTC

reneherse wrote: post #91

Fordrus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been to a run clinic, I can absolutely call bull on the claim "Footwear is irrelevant, here.". At least the run clinic I went to assured me multiple times that my impression that wearing "trainers" specifically and greatly increases the difficulty of running "correctly" by striking with the middle of your foot with slightly bent knee. The large heel of virtually all training shoes makes landing in the middle o…

>I've been on the lookout for good places to run entirely barefoot as well, but I'm not as daring as some. If you're fortunate to live near a good beach, I've found the hard packed sand along the water's edge to be the practical ideal surface for barefoot running. It's best if the beach isn't too sloped, and of course you have to mind the shells and other debris. Moonlit beach runs have become a highlight for me on c…

I would second this, that sand you mentioned is perfect, plus I'm taller and have more weight so anything softer than asphalt is a plus.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#229

Post by nostromo95 » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

adamsea wrote: post #121

nostromo95 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>swing them moderately (not too little, not too much) Just had to point out this delicious tautology. Anyway, I don't think you can sum up correct running form in words, or if you can then it's not useful. My advice would be: keep your tempo (steps/minute) around 170-180, do ankle mobility work and hip/glute strengthening. A high tempo lessens time in air each stride and thus velocity when hitting the ground, lowerin…

>Just had to point out this delicious tautology. Anyway, I don't think you can sum up correct running form in words, or if you can then it's not useful. My advice would be: .... Just had to point out this tasty contradiction. ;)

Au contraire! My tips aren't describing good form, as much as describing the conditions that lead to good form. A subtle but important difference.

Re: We Evolved to Run But We're Doing It Wrong

#230

Post by nostromo95 » Mon, Jul 31, 2017, 9:04 PM UTC

exhilaration wrote: post #227

nostromo95 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I only run in Vibrams, it's plainly much better Let me know the next time you see Asbel Kiprop, Eliud Kipchoge or Evan Jager wearing a pair of those.

I Googled the first name you posted and he also appears to be wearing minimalistic shoes, looks like Nike Frees? http://www.all-athletics.com/files/imagecache/photos_big/pho...

Those are running spikes. Runners use them in track/XC for races/intense workouts. No one wears them for all or even close to the majority of their running. They're also very stiff in the exact same way that feet aren't.