Why Germany Educates International Students for Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#221

Post by ed_balls » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #177

ed_balls wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.

I can't speak for Germany, but e.g. in Norway and the Netherlands which I know best, there are a lot of nice tech jobs and you don't have to speak a word of the native language. I know because I've had colleagues over a decade who don't speak the native language and who are still just fine. Most tech companies today use english as work language anyway. Not necessarily social talk among people, but usually in meetings…

You can survive sure, but I'd be really hard and expensive to start a company. How am I suppose to read german law and fill government forms? Have a lawyer to everything for me? Thanks no thanks.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#222

Post by wolfgke » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #218

cagataygurturk wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why learning German is a big issue? These are young people who can learn a language easily and in the beginning nobody expects you so high proficiency and people will always help and encourage you to learn the language. In Europe many educated folks know min 2 languages more and very open to learn more, you just need to leave your comfort zone. Learning languages also develops intellectually.

> In Europe many educated folks know min 2 languages more and very open to learn more Am Eastern-European, my mother tongue is a Romance language, I speak and read English, read and understand Italian, French and Spanish. German has proved too much of a hurdle for me.

> Am Eastern-European, my mother tongue is a Romance language, I speak and read English, read and understand Italian, French and Spanish. German has proved too much of a hurdle for me.

Of course if you speak some Romance language natively, other Romance languages will be a lot easier than a Germanic language as German. Here you should rather compare German with a language from a different language family, such as some Slavic language.

I (native German speaker) think that at least for English speakers French and German are about equally hard. The main difference is that French has a "smoother" learning curve, while German's grammar is really grueling at the beginning (but this is also said of the Russian grammar).

What in my opinion many people don't get is learning German means learning the unpleasant grammar (IMHO best by rote drill) inside out. Concentrating on the vocabulary and getting the grammar later might work for other languages that are less grammar-centric than German, but I can imagine German is very confusing for non-native speakers, if they are not rather certain in the grammar.

As soon as one is sufficiently certain in German's grammar (i.e. you don't have to think about conjugation and declination anymore), the learning experience will become much more pleasant, since in my opinion how words are "built up from parts" (in German in particular prominently by juxtaposition) is "in some sense much more logical and memorable" than how words are built in English or Romance language. A rather funny take on this for German animal names can be found under https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/funny-animal-names-in-ger...

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#223

Post by MarkMc » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

1maginary wrote: post #215

nshelly wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. Learning a foreign language not widely spoken outside of Europe, while also taking college-level math and science courses is a high barrier to entry. This is the primary reason Germany is able to pull this off. If a high-quality college education were free in an English-speaking country, say Australia, there would be a lot more international students willing and able to enroll there. After graduating, y…

>Yes, exactly. Learning a foreign language not widely spoken outside of Europe, while also taking college-level math and science courses is a high barrier to entry Obligatory "anecdote isn't data" but as someone in a third world country who seriously considered studying in Germany, the language learning aspect was the least of my worries. I got to a B2 proficiency level in around a year and to C1/C2 within a year of…

Just curious: Where is 'here'?

And did you consider trying to get a German Blue Card after graduating in your home country?

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#224

Post by yardie » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 5:30 PM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #183

thesumofall wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because some students don't aspire to go to a German university doesn't mean the quality of education would be any worse. Many of my close friends (and me personally as well) did their undergrad in Germany and then a semester abroad and/or their Master's in top-10 universities in the US. I have yet to hear from anyone that they felt in any way more challenged in the US (typically the opposite). Yes studying in t…

Same experience. I think despite the ranking, European universities are actually higher quality. American universities use too much student assistants. Too much of the teaching is hand holding and high school like. When I compare my dutch university experience with my American, it was more research oriented in the Netherlands. You learned to think more scientifically. In the US it felt like it was just about learning…

It's a double edged sword. I didn't attend a European university but I have many friends who have. Their complaints were the subjects were book heavy with very little practical overlap. Professors were unreachable, office hours did not exist.

This was for the normal universities. The technical schools are a different animal. Extrememly competitive to the point of mental breakdown. And if that happened? Tough luck, they don't care.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#225

Post by wolfgke » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

faragon wrote: post #219

wolfgke wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> German IT companies accept to work in English because available workforce in neighbor countries already know English Let's look at the neighbor countries of Germany and my impressions of their German language skills: Austria: German is spoken there Belgium: ? Czechia: Czechs who want to work in Germany often know German (to me) surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by German history (keyword: Sudetenland…

> TLDR: In many Germany's neighboring countries it is common to know German on a decent level - at least if you plan to work in Germany. If there was I second language from a neighboring country in which work should be accepted, this should rather be French (for France and Belgium) instead of English. Sure, e.g. I did myself one year of German courses (I forgot most of it, because it was long time ago). In my opinion…

You explicitly talked of "neighboring countries" of Germany - here I provided evidence that the situation is different.

> being ha handicap having to learn French or German for a temporary job

Here I rather see the problem: The people only want a temporary job in Germany - so they see Germany just as a stepping stone for their career. If I were a staff manager at a company, I would be very cautious to hire such a person, since in Germany it is seen as a desirable trait that a person does not switch jobs every few years. There are "legal period of notice" which hold for both sides: An employer can after some probation period not simply fire an employee without a period of notice, but the other implication does also hold: After the probation period an employee cannot simply quit the job without a period of notice, too.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#226

Post by erikb » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

orless wrote: post #200

erikb wrote: post #10

Funny. I took care of foreign students in my German university and they get exploited the hell out. At first they pay more than German students for the same semester, despite having worse chances to succeed (language barrier, culture barrier, fewer friends/family etc). Then they have to join preparation courses one way or another, because, you know, German isn't easy. Then they hardly get access to the public student…

> At first they pay more than German students for the same semester Citation needed. Never heard of any differences in fees for foreigners. > Then they hardly get access to the public student dorms Not in my experience. Dorms are full of foreigh students. > and are put 3-6 people in old, unclean apartments far away from university (partly without public transport access) "Are put"? What you describe is a "WG" ("Wohng…

> "Are put"? What you describe is a "WG" ("Wohngemeinschaft" roughly "living community") which is simply a co-rental. So nobody "is put" there, you search and rent what you can find. WGs are generally recommended for foreign students because it allows better socializing and integration.

Yes, there are normal WGs, and if you get a room in a WG your payment is usually a fair share.

But there is also the situation where foreign students have to sign time limited (unkündigbar) contracts for beds in WGs. I'd be happy to hear that this doesn't everywhere, but I was basically the guy who delivered the students to these apartments on their first day, so it certainly happens at one university.

And sadly I know that there are foreigners who rent private apartments in the same fashion to foreign students from their country with the same method, all over Berlin, so probably also in other cities. However that's not the exploitation I'm talking about.

Lastly let me repeat that: I talk about an experience here, that I was part of because I didn't know it at first. I don't interpret general newspaper knowledge or something.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#227

Post by MichailP » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

woodpanel wrote: post #201

MichailP wrote: post #112

While I think it is good for both Germany and students, it probably has a bit of geopolitics mixed in. All those young people, if they return to their home countries, will be naturally more oriented toward German products thus indirectly making German economy stronger. I saw a similar theme in Russia, where there is even a specialized university for this [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_Uni…

Very odd statement to include economical geopolitics here. Do you really believe that German companies lobbied each of the 16 German state-governments to lure in foreign students just so they buy German stuff back at home? Wouldn't it make more sense to influence foreigners directly with this thing called "marketing"? If you're Adidas, why the hell go through this hassle and conspire with > to use the german educatio…

Speaking of Adidas and geopolitics, they produce all their shoes for Europe in Sanino d.o.o in Derventa, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cheap labor in war destroyed country... go figure.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#228

Post by MarkMc » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 6:07 PM UTC

I'm interested in setting up a small non-profit school for poor, young adults in Indonesia to teach them German and other skills necessary for admission to Studienkolleg (the one-year preparatory course for foreign students wishing to apply to a German university).

The main goal is to get the student a good IT job in Germany within 5 or 6 years. In return, the student must commit to giving a percentage of his or her income back to the school, so the school can grow without requiring external donations.

What does HN think of this plan? Is it achievable? If not, what is the most likely cause of failure?

PS: If anyone knows a good lawyer in Indonesia for setting up a yayasan or obtaining KITAS please contact me - see profile.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#229

Post by hassancf » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 6:36 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #202

yodsanklai wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries. I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work. Besides, they contribute to the German economy by living there. And even if they leave, t…

> I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work Maybe, but there's also opportunity cost. That's one seat that someone isn't taking, teacher time that isn't going to someone else. > contribute to the German economy by living there Yes, but they cost the German economy by being there too. Have you done the math on th…

What about students back in their home country that would preferably buy German whether as an individual or as a person in charge of a business?

See the example of French-educated people/elite in Africa.

I think if German citizens don't like this they could just push their politicians to make the appropriate changes.

There is no need to point the finger to these foreign students: just talk to your politicians.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#230

Post by zackmorris » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 6:53 PM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #182

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the…

I'm concerned that comments like this are rising up in Hacker News lately. I'm not going to downvote it because it got me to write this post so has some intrinsic merit. But it strikes me as, to be blunt, unenlightened. Lots of facts but no deeper sentiment.

I would argue that the last sentence, the "may sound harsh" one, is most important - that as countries and populations reach certain levels of affluence and influence in the world, that it is very much their responsibility to be examples for others and provide a beacon towards what is still possible. The United States used to do this but I'm afraid we've turned inward due to seemingly prudent arguments that ignore the spiritual nature of our existence.