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Tech Workers' Values

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Tech Workers' Values

#221

Post by rfrank »

st3v3r wrote: post #210
rfrank wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not wrong. Which part of his comment is the bigotry you feel like projecting? Is approval for stronger border protection bigotry? Is thinking the EO on immigration is fine bigotry? Is making assumptions about every single political opinion someone has based on a single statement bigotry? Do you think that liberals or tech employees are somehow above bigotry and treating people poorly? Remember Talia Jane and…

No, the reason it's laughable is that the ones expected to bridge this divide are the ones who believe in rights and human dignity for everyone, not the ones who believe that others should be treated as second class citizens. Look at what happened when Obama won. Those on the left were expected to reach out to those on the right, and they did so. But then look at what happened when Trump won: Once again, the ones exp…

> Look at what happened when Obama won.

"Elections have consequences." "I won. Deal with it." "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan." Politicizing the IRS.

Should I pretend that Yvette Felarca [1] is a beacon of liberal thought in the same way you're doing with that nobody you linked in the Mic article? Do you assume that most Trump voters would condone that guy's behavior? Like, seriously?

GOP is the strongest it's been from a local to national level since the 1920's. The internal conflict they're going through with the Freedom Caucus is something Trump voters anticipated, never Trump Republicans were a thing. Democratic leadership seems unsure whether to follow the more vocal portion of their base further to the left, or refocus on the more centrist Democrats who went Obama in '08 and '12 but voted Trump in '16. Obstructionist moves in Washington are something the left isn't traditionally fond of [2]. That's why the left should reach out. Do whatever you want, you clearly don't seem to mind the politicization.

1. http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/02/14/berkeley-teacher...

2. https://newrepublic.com/article/141751/democrats-will-lose-w...

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#222

Post by oddlyaromatic »

stale2002 wrote: post #217
oddlyaromatic wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's people like this commenter who need to be won over if a union would have any chance in tech. But I don't know how to do it. At my first ever job everybody at the company was an automatic member of a union (it was a grocery store in my home town). I knew that when I took a paid break, or a vacation, or got time and a half for night work, I was benefiting from industrial action taken by those who went before me. I…

Winning me over is easy. Give me a better deal. If the union job pays 50% more then I will take it. I'd have to be stupid not to. But don't expect my loyalty to the union. As soon as it become a better deal to do something else, I am going to do that thing. I don't care about solidarity, or "crossing the picket line" or whatever. I will take the best deal that is offered to me.

Crossing a picket line is kind of a moral choice where you decide how much value you place on A) the success of that particular strike and B) ever having anything to do with those picketers again. It is weird to talk about in terms of tech, but nevertheless, if there is a union that represents you, ignoring a strike would probably not be free, it would just be a different kind of cost. Maybe how many numbers you get at the end of the day is the only value you care about. I think, beyond a certain minimum salary, regard for your impact on other humans becomes relevant to many of us in the choices we make. Or things like work environment or hours, which unions safeguard. Would you work in a less safe environment to make your take home number 5% bigger? Or, indeed, tolerate greater risk to somebody else for more pay for you? "The best deal" can be a lot of things.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#223

Post by dredmorbius »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #42

One way to start "spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country" would be to advocate for distributing H1-B jobs via auction, rather than lottery. Perhaps the union could work on this!

That creates several modes of imbalance / abuse, potentially.

E.g., a large and cash-rich firm could bid on more visas than it needs, starving other firms.

It also fails to address the leverage that the visa sponsor has over the visa holder -- lose your job, and you lose your right to remain in-country.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#226

Post by dredmorbius »

theparanoid wrote: post #117
jaequery wrote: post #30

What are your guys thoughts on moving or starting a new tech community in a remote city that are not too expensive, such as Alaska even?

There used to be tech in interior California which is an inexpensive area. Sierra Online/Sierra Entertainment was a notable example. The Grass Valley Group was another. Paul Graham's "How To a Silicon Valley" [0] has the best recommendations I've seen. [0] http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html

@pg's guide is good, but misses a few points.

There's the role of the defense industry and Silicon Valley. See Steve Blank's "Secret History of Silicon Valley":

https://steveblank.com/category/secret-history-of-silicon-va...

That said, there's a bunch of strength to @pg's points and conclusions. Portland and Boulder as potential tech hubs sounds about right. It might be possible to build out elsewhere -- Rochester and Buffalo in New York were technology centers, once, and though it's small, Burlington, VT, has much of the right vibe (though possibly too harsh winters) for tech.

I don't see the sweat-and-mildew belt -- the midwest -- really doing much. There's too much about getting outside and actually clearing your head, which the vast expanses of overhumidified prarie (or frozen tundra) don't offer. Though the land is cheap, and a few college towns (University of Illinois, University of Iowa, Notre Dame) might manage to create some centres around.

I'm also not entirely sure Chicago ought be written off, though I suspect it would take a tremendous amount to turn it around. On the one hand, it's lower-cost land, nearer East Coast centres, with good natural transport (air, rail, ship, truck) for various industry. On the other hand, the weather's little different from Ithaca or Pittsburgh, and the politics are interminable.

The flexability of pretty much doing what you wanted in California in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s is hard to beat, and that's continued to pay off. Though I'd argue those benefits are now largely gone.

The role of a cheap housing stock and/or the ability to pick up and create a long-term plan with a large set of land, say, in Chicago or Detroit, seems interesting though.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#227

Post by dredmorbius »

idlewords wrote: post #54
jaequery wrote: post #30

What are your guys thoughts on moving or starting a new tech community in a remote city that are not too expensive, such as Alaska even?

Alaska is a very expensive place; you have to ship everything in.

On a positive, though, hipsters have low tarrifs and pack flat.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#228

Post by pseudalopex »

chimeracoder wrote: post #209
pseudalopex wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation considers anything but "open shop" to be "forced unionism" and lists 28 states as free from that scourge.[1] No exclusive contracts, no agency fees. [1] http://www.nrtw.org/right-to-work-states

> The National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation considers anything but "open shop" to be "forced unionism" and lists 28 states as free from that scourge.[1] No exclusive contracts, no agency fees. I think you're conflating open shops and right-to-work laws, but besides that, the point is that there is no free rider problem even in states with right-to-work laws, because the union can structure their contracts w…

NRTW's definition of "right to work" appears to be the common definition. It's also the common definition of "open shop".

Minority unions can bargain only for their members -- but as far as I can tell, members can't commit to be bound by the outcome, which undermines the union's bargaining power. Even then, the prevailing legal opinion seems to be that they can't negotiate terms that structurally favor members over non-members.

Majority unions have to represent all workers in a bargaining unit, members or not.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#229

Post by oddlyaromatic »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #207
oddlyaromatic wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's people like this commenter who need to be won over if a union would have any chance in tech. But I don't know how to do it. At my first ever job everybody at the company was an automatic member of a union (it was a grocery store in my home town). I knew that when I took a paid break, or a vacation, or got time and a half for night work, I was benefiting from industrial action taken by those who went before me. I…

There's a difference between what's best for the group and what's best for individual members of the group. This conflict comes up over and over again, as it arises from straightforward principles from game theory. If everyone bargains collectively, overall compensation goes up as companies have much worse alternatives to negotiated agreement. However, these companies are generally very willing to bribe people into b…

I don't know. Picket lines are a really specific situation. I don't think companies are motivated in normal times to pay more to non-union workers. What exactly would they be paying for? You are right about the general tension between group and individual rewards for choices. It goes beyond unions as you mention. I do think some unions do OK in this regard- actors and musicians are not held back on individual income but still benefit from industry standards negotiated by unions.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#230

Post by dredmorbius »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #83
HarryHirsch wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd rather say that at-will employment and especially the tight labour market outside tech enables the authoritarian structure of the modern workplace.

No, I meant expressly what I said. A democracy cannot function when it harbors inside itself a system in which the survival of most people is determined by something organized like a dictatorship. The poor conditions in the modern labor market have been engineered by these authoritarian systems in collusion with the governments they corrupt with their outsized wealth and power. It's intended to disenfranchise people…

At-will employment, tight labour markets, etc., are a significant part of that engineering.

I suspect you and HarryHirsch are in violent agreement.

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