Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#221

Post by NicoJuicy » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

znq wrote: post #17

krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Very true. For both of our companies [1][2] we pay a fair salary plus a quarterly bonus on top of that based on what we can give (based on the company's quarterly profit results). We also offer remote retreats (so far Cape Town, Thailand, Martinique, Spain and Skiing in the Alps) and the biggest contributor to everyone's satisfaction is that we let everyone work from where ever they want and as much as they want as l…

I like the apply for jobs with json ;)

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#222

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #214

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

Your first sentence is a non sequitur. Profitability and salaries aren't linked.

They're pretty much the same thing from the employee's perspective. Unless my human capital is appreciating somehow (improving skills, leadership opportunities, better networking, etc.) then I'm lowering my profits when I take a lower salary.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#223

Post by dgudkov » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

Try hiring people outside US. You would be surprised how many decent developers there are in other countries.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#224

Post by thedevil » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

emcq wrote: post #190

thedevil wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had more of a financial background before becoming a software engineer. I was shocked when I found out "equity" given to early engineers is so puny. Why would someone work long hours for low pay with higher risk for 0.1% of high-risk small business?

From my own experience, it was naivety and manipulation. I trusted the founder when he would make big promises for the future. He didn't bring up equity until the last moment once we already were ready to quit and join. In hindsight these are clearly common business tactics (get the person to accept before going into details), but as a young engineer I had more trust in older more experienced folks like the founder.…

> It's hard to describe how a good salesman can have you saying yes to things you aren't comfortable with.

I recommend a book that describes some of these tricks pretty well. It helps protect me from such manipulation (some of the time):

https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Rober...

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#225

Post by fpgaminer » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #186

jasode wrote: post #78

The way the article frames the $350k competitive salary as a "problem" for startups is backwards. If you're a businessman, you build a business that works with the prevailing pricing that's out there. That includes prices for everything such as raw materials, office rent, AWS/GCP cloud costs, government taxes & fees, and yes, high programmer salaries. Complaining that your startup is "hurt" because AWS egress transfe…

That's a reasonable tactical perspective. For the individual entrepreneur, it's valid. That doesn't mean that this article isn't a valid complaint from other perspectives. E.g., It's totally reasonable that CEOs and investors will grumble about this. I'm sure Bezos, Page, and Brin were grumbling at the costs back in the day. But I think the interesting perspective here is at the ecosystem level. If startups have to s…

This is why I'm kinda getting on board Courtland Allen's belief in indie startups. They're a counter reaction to that unicorn obsession of the current startup world. And the developer and entrepreneurial ecosystem is now such that launching and running small, competent businesses with useful products/services is easier than ever.

In other words, yes, the ecosystem is starving out traditional startups. But it seems like it's making a breeding ground for indie startups. They don't suffer the cost of a $350k/yr salary, which gives them a nice advantage.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#226

Post by dbg31415 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:23 PM UTC

Man, every startup at SXSW was bitching about this.

I think it's an easy fix...

1) Startups need to pay more than they want to. If you want a talented engineer, they aren't free. I see a lot of startups offering WAY low salaries and then getting frustrated they can't find devs... it's basic supply and demand. Budget accordingly and stop making business plans that involve finding devs for lower-than-market-rates.

2) Hire more junior people, build a process to mentor them. Recognize that they will leave after a year or two...

3) Hire freelancers to augment where needed.

4) Hire remote workers who live in cheaper locations -- realistically these days the only hard part about managing a distributed team is when they are in dramatically different time zones.

5) Work smart... a stitch in time saves nine, measure twice cut once... hire good product managers, UX designers, and QA people to help keep your project momentum going. Devs building prototypes that you just want to changeup as soon as it's launched... those are the most expensive wireframes you'll ever build... you're not only saddled with the dev cost, but tech debt to make changes. Prototype to keep costs down.

6) Cut other costs... Get rid of your office, for starters.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#227

Post by tylerfoster » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:24 PM UTC

Isn't that kind of the goal?

They get the talent that could build great companies on their own, and if that talent is interested in the same areas they are, they lower the risk that talent will end up building successfully competition.

If the markets are worth winning, the difference of a $50K * team size doesn't really matter in the big picture.

At the same time, by driving up the ante, if an area they're not paying attention to does get traction, to get to a successful exit there's a higher likelihood that the startups will need VC capital only the likes of Google Ventures and similar corporate venturing funds can provide.

Seems like a solid strategy to me.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#228

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:28 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #90

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

Ooof, those rates are indeed pretty low. I get why you're doing it, but could having access to more engineers easier maybe help get you to profitability faster? I find interviewing a bunch of good people, making offers and then having them turn down the position because of money to be a big waste of time/money. How many hours/dollars do you spend in that 6 months? I had students leaving my classes at General Assembly…

> I'm trying to think creatively about benefits that would make me consider a 90k salary.

Pay my rent, absolutely free childcare, and 100% covered healthcare costs?

> The #1 thing that could entice me, over salary, would be some way for my employer to help me secure a decent mortgage...

You mean cosign? Otherwise that just looks like a really big signing bonus.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#229

Post by jessaustin » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #30

ozi wrote: post #11

This article is basically arguing that farm teams should be able to afford pro athletes... Having engineers who "perform in the top 10%" is a nice-to-have, not a requirement for startup success.

I agree but the problem is also the money. A lot of the VCs want to talk about how many ex GOOG and FB engineers who graduated from MIT that they have building their next unicorn. They don't have the same story talking about three state school graduates from Kansas who may be just as talented and have a better product. They also never want to fly to Kansas, like ever. I've lived through this working at a startup in c…

Very few people fly to Kansas. There isn't really a major airport in the state.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#230

Post by kyriakos » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 5:30 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

There's also a lot of candidates abroad who are willing to work as contractors for your startup for usually lower salaries than you'd pay a local employee.