Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality • Hacker News Board

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#221

Post by laughfactory » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:34 AM UTC

imode wrote: post #83

sulam wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "this story" you mean a story like this? Because this one is new. https://twitter.com/ryanavent/status/841411624904863746

A story like this. "videogames are sucking people in" has been replayed when WoW was popular. and even the article references prior stories.

That doesn't mean there's nothing to see here. The fact remains that the official metrics are getting worse, and the changes can be reasonably ascribed to people choosing to opt out and play video games (among other things). In another decade we'll be reading articles like this one, but the share of young males opting out will go from 14% to at least 20%, maybe even 25%, if the trends hold. How long until 50% of young males are opting out? And consider that as that number rises those are men who are not buying stuff (better for the environment, but worse for the economy), getting married, having kids, starting businesses, etc

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#222

Post by projektir » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:34 AM UTC

saryant wrote: post #159

projektir wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are also coming of age in an economy which increasingly doesn't need them. Their job—and therefore romantic—prospects are poor. > Narcissists, of course, do not blame themselves for their problems. Those are the fault of others. I find this juxtaposition rather funny. What I find really odd is that you seem much more concerned about the results of this rather than what caused this trend in the first place.

Fair critique. I was thinking of an acquaintance who fits the mould I described. He lives in a shithole town where the are no jobs and no prospects. He complains endlessly about how he'll never find a career. Why doesn't he take responsibility and move somewhere with an actual economy? I know he's not stupid. So why doesn't he try? And yes, I am more concerned about the results. Knowing how we got here is necessary b…

> And yes, I am more concerned about the results. Knowing how we got here is necessary but isn't going to change the future.

I see this pattern a lot. People always seem to be concerned about the results. It's drastically inefficient. How is this different from saying you can't fix bugs right now because you need to work on features? Then you'll never fix any bugs. And if you focus on results, you'll never even notice a cause. And you'll always be fixing the big difficult problem and wondering why you never have any time and why everything is always bad.

The result is a natural extension of the cause. If you don't like the result, address the cause. If you fail to address the cause, you deserve the result (not you literally but the relevant collective). So late in the process is too late to complain. Instead, go find the next cause, before all you're left with is results.

> I was thinking of an acquaintance who fits the mould I described. He lives in a shithole town where the are no jobs and no prospects. He complains endlessly about how he'll never find a career. Why doesn't he take responsibility and move somewhere with an actual economy? I know he's not stupid. So why doesn't he try?

There's not enough information in this paragraph, yet I find it trivial to think of possible explanations but here you're asking "why?", as if that's an interesting question (maybe he developed learned helplessness?). I will say that if you focus on blaming the individual, their motivations will close up to you completely and you will have significant trouble understanding them. "This person is just inferior" is an infinite black hole that can eat any and all cause while providing you with zero solutions. I've seen many times when there were obvious explanations, but a person was so engrossed in blame they just couldn't see them.

When you focus on results and turn to blame, you effectively blind yourself to how the world operates, because there's nothing keeping in check how far you can assign blame. And after a while, the sheer amount of blame becomes cause itself.

I bring up blame because your original post was full of blame of people, yet little blame for the cause itself.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#223

Post by 9erdelta » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:36 AM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #175

alphonsegaston wrote: post #66

Every job I've worked in my adult life has involved being judged by standards the boomers doing the judging could never live up to, and then covering for their incompetence with technical skills(because I'm young, so I can just do that stuff). It would be such a sad joke if it weren't for the fact that they squat in every opportunity young people have for their futures (real estate, higher positions, etc) while the y…

Utter and complete rubbish. The 'boomers' invented most of the 'computer stuff' you use, most 'developers' today are hacks (granted, some are amazing). Boomers had difficult upbringing, brought real social change, lived through - and ended the Cold War. Female boomers were expected to be secretaries - and had to fight for the right just to do normal jobs in the workplace. Even the boys - were expected to do the same…

Millennials also have helicopter parents. This is a totally new hardship. Being raised in a way that is completely incompatible with reality. Then we get to the "real" world and are told we don't know anything. Well gee thanks dad. Judging by the American economy and the state of world affairs, doesn't seem like boomers are all they crack themselves up to be either.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#224

Post by researcher11 » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:39 AM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #204

vlunkr wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trick is to stop caring about the 1%. There isn't limited wealth or happiness. I promise if you plan it out it's completely possible to retire with dignity and people are doing it all the time.

I promise if you plan it out it's completely possible to retire with dignity and people are doing it all the time Unless, of course your planning counts on government sponsored health insurance or even Social Security since in today's political climate, there's no guarantee that either will be around for your retirement.

Pensions are the first to go. They already are in many places. Taxpayers will be unable to bail them out. If you think being 20 with a shitty job is bad then consider being 65 with no savings or income whatsoever.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#225

Post by zxcvvcxz » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:40 AM UTC

laughfactory wrote: post #150

It's not just video games either. Add Netflix and social media, and soon, VR, to the equation, and it's pretty clear that the game of life offers insufficient rewards relative to one's efforts. I don't believe we ended up here due to some grand conspiracy, but I do think that the top 1% have gotten so skilled at trapping wealth and therefore opportunity that it's really screwing over everyone else. Even as a relative…

> I don't believe we ended up here due to some grand conspiracy,

> but I do think that the top 1% have gotten so skilled at trapping wealth and therefore opportunity that it's really screwing over everyone else.

I've got news people: the top 1% is not forcing you to watch Netflix, consume social media, or strap a VR headset on.

We live in a generation absolutely devoid of personal responsibility. And it's why ideas that would easily be dismissed as Marxist (which masquerade as "post-modern") 30+ years ago are on the rise today.

Oh, you're just oppressed.

Economic growth is over, we have to redistribute things now.

It's not you're fault that you're addicted. Here, take this medication every day.

Where's the hard work in today's generation? Where's the personal responsibility? Where's the discipline? Where's the can-do attitude?

And let's get straight-to-the-point on the article in question. Nobody cares about men whining. It's just reality. Call it politically incorrect, whatever. If you're a man and don't work to get what you think you deserve, you won't get it. Instead, there's just gonna be more single women and more jobs available for those that do choose to compete.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#226

Post by Endy » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:41 AM UTC

karmajunkie wrote: post #74

sandworm101 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how many of those boomers have themselves slipped into the alternate realities of drugs and alcohol? If you are going to distract yourself, videogames are better than drinking. The remark in the OP about the father having to change a baby while playing a game is telling. That father could put his gaming on pause. A generation ago, how many fathers in similar situations were catatonic with a bottle in one hand? Ra…

I read that same passage and wondered who was paying attention to the kids? Great, Dad's got some buddies who will lay down some cover while he changes a diaper. What's the kid get out of that deal?

What's the kid entitled to? He has a father. He gets a clean diaper when he needs it, and likely extra attention. Compared to some of the kids of single moms I knew where video game protagonists WERE their father figure, the kid has it good.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#227

Post by Terr_ » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:43 AM UTC

notthemessiah wrote: post #107

diogenescynic wrote: post #79

Good paying jobs are scarce and video games are relatively cheap for the amount of time you can spend on them. It's escapism. They are confusing correlation with causation.

> Video games are relatively cheap for the amount of time you can spend on them. This has far-reaching consequences. With most goods, the consumer has to keep consuming (and thus creating demand). There's major concerns whether or not we can keep enough people working (and buying things) to keep the economy going, and video games don't contribute as much to aggregate demand. With an economic system that depends on co…

> video games don't contribute as much to aggregate demand

Perhaps, but consistent demand isn't everything. I mean, hard drugs keep people buying, but...

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#228

Post by Bahamut » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:43 AM UTC

I had a bout with game addiction for almost my first two years of college. At some point, I decided to fight it, and devote myself not just to breaking that addiction, but being dedicated to retaining the ability to break any addiction I wanted to.

I managed to survive college with dual BS degrees in mathematics and physics, and attend a prestigious graduate program in mathematics, although I had to pay my way via loans for two years because of the damage I did to my grades my first two years of college. I was secretly dejected after leaving graduate school after 4 years, but was fortunate to land in software engineering. I don't play too many games anymore just due to being busy, but I still am tied into the game industry due to my tight network of friends, many whom became successful in the game music industry, or games or music.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#229

Post by Chathamization » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:44 AM UTC

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #189

65827 wrote: post #19

I really like this read, something just smells off about blaming young people for "wasting years" on video games. We've got a horribly stacked real life "game" where the boomers and elites have horded everything and fucked future generations, blaming an individual for dropping out and not wanting to really participate in that trainwreck is being dishonest at best.

The "horribly stacked life" card is, in my experience, most often played by people trying to get by in the overly competitive environments of large cities. I know a lot of people don't like to hear it, but I'll let you in on a little secret: if you don't feel like you're getting anywhere trying to work and live in a major city, do yourself a favor and move to a less-populated area. Many cities have become extremely c…

Part of the issue is that for decades sprawl was preferred by many people and development followed this path while many more dense areas suffered from neglect. Now there's been a strong shift towards density, but the amount of people who want to live in dense areas is greater than the amount of desirable dense areas available.

At least around here, I've noticed that developers in the (often cheaper) suburbs are making a push towards building high-density walkable devevolopments.

It's worth noting that in many cities, there are still a lot of affordable options (some even cheaper than a few decades ago), but they're often not in the hip areas that people want to live. When people talk about how unfair it is that others got good values in the hip areas, they often don't realize that those areas were once the cheap undesirable areas.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#230

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 4:44 AM UTC

9erdelta wrote: post #223

edblarney wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utter and complete rubbish. The 'boomers' invented most of the 'computer stuff' you use, most 'developers' today are hacks (granted, some are amazing). Boomers had difficult upbringing, brought real social change, lived through - and ended the Cold War. Female boomers were expected to be secretaries - and had to fight for the right just to do normal jobs in the workplace. Even the boys - were expected to do the same…

Millennials also have helicopter parents. This is a totally new hardship. Being raised in a way that is completely incompatible with reality. Then we get to the "real" world and are told we don't know anything. Well gee thanks dad. Judging by the American economy and the state of world affairs, doesn't seem like boomers are all they crack themselves up to be either.

> Millennials also have helicopter parents.

Helicopter parenting is not new (except for the name), and is neither unique to nor universal among parents of Millenials.

> Judging by the American economy and the state of world affairs, doesn't seem like boomers are all they crack themselves up to be either.

To be fair to the Boomers, while they certainly failed to fix it, the damage was mostly done by the "Greatest Generation" (the strong economy the GG often gets credit for was created when the GG were in their youth and the Lost Generation was running the show.)