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I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

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Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#221

Post by eli_gottlieb »

d3ckard wrote: post #68

Nice post, though there are some caveats. As a Pole (as some of you know, we do have some issues here too, though many would disagree) I feel at least a bit competent to give you a bit of advice, so you can get out of it better than we did. 1. Donald Trump is not your enemy, nor a problem. He is a manifestation of the problem, which is current state of your society and problems you have. Do not believe that you can j…

>You have people working full-time who cannot afford the living. You have one of the most expensive and unreachable for many healthcare systems. You do have degressive taxing systems. You have much smaller middle class that you are used too.

These are all very, very real problems. The problem is, they're not solved by voting Republican, but a lot of people simply think of themselves as Republicans. So there are a lot of people who voted to wreck everything rather than to fix their own problems.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#222

Post by mvindahl »

refurb wrote: post #187
geff82 wrote: post #6

Wonderfully written, giving my thoughts a word. For me and my wife, the USA, despite all their shortcomings, are a country we really want to live in. It stands for many good things. It is not a country you want to mess with, and we are fine with that. We embrace American culture, we love American companies, we so far respected American politicians. For stuff we as individuals are interested in (which might not be wha…

As an American, I have a lot of respect for Iran. It's a beautiful country with great people. But when I turn on the news and I see "Death to America" being chanted or Iranians trample or burn the American flag the rust is broken. Not to mention the 1983 Beirut Barracks Bombing which killed hundreds of Americans and was committed by a group directly funded by the Iranian gov't. The situation feels very strange. Empty…

Holding individuals accountable for for what the government of their country did three decades ago is a slippery slope.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#223

Post by eli_gottlieb »

aedron wrote: post #5

You know what a lot of people consider worse than Donald Trump? The status quo. That's what I feel is missing in all this indignation - where were you before? The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home. All sold to the public with glib mark…

>The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home.

Trump ran on making all of these things worse.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#224

Post by eli_gottlieb »

hueving wrote: post #79
verbify wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he is an outsider to the established system He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million. He didn't pay his taxes. His chief of staff was chairman of the Republican party. His cabinet have a combined net worth of $6 billion. If anyone represents the powers-that-be, he does. If anyone has a glib marketing campaign, it's the Trump presidency in claiming to be 'outsiders'. And if you think the political system…

>He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million He didn't inherit it with a bunch of strings attached from lobbyists. The Clintons have been pulling money into their foundation leveraging political connections built up over decades. People don't care that he's rich with daddy's money, they care that it's not "decades of political speeches and political fundraising money". >He didn't pay his taxes He would be a…

>You may be right, but many people were voting in a massive change to the system. "drain the swap" was the slogan

You know who first said, "Drain the swamp"? Benito Mussolini. You know how that turned out?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#225

Post by rdtsc »

golemotron wrote: post #207
rdtsc wrote: post #73

> As of 2017, the United States, through a sequence of highly improbable events, managed to elect an extremely controversial president. I think it a mistake to see this as a random fluke and chuck it up to chance. It seems like chance to those who were asleep or were watching news from their own bubble. Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making. If we ignore the conditions…

> Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making. If we ignore the conditions which created Trump, if we only pay attention to what is in our own Facebook feed we'll end up with another Trump, and another. Every time assuming it was random or an act of God or Russians or whatever. Yes, Jeff's post is notes from the filter bubble. Someone I know on Facebook was posting proudly af…

Exactly a short time with people from the Rust Belt would be very informative. Stuff I get from my friends and family on the coasts makes it sound like all those other who voted for Trump do is wake up and first thing start thinking how they can hurt minorities that day better. That points to a lack of analysis and understanding of what happened and it will just result in Trump being re-ellected.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#226

Post by rdtsc »

RodericDay wrote: post #177
rdtsc wrote: post #73

> As of 2017, the United States, through a sequence of highly improbable events, managed to elect an extremely controversial president. I think it a mistake to see this as a random fluke and chuck it up to chance. It seems like chance to those who were asleep or were watching news from their own bubble. Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making. If we ignore the conditions…

Best post by a mile. Not only did America elect Trump, Sanders also did mighty fine for someone who in years past would be considered unelectable. People pass around figures about GDP and low unemployment to prove to themselves things are absolutely fine, but then you dig further and you find that many feel lost and desperate. Obama said "America is already great", and many people found it a vomit-inducing quip. In m…

> Not only did America elect Trump, Sanders also did mighty fine for someone who in years past would be considered unelectable.

Oh yes. Here was someone very leftist (by American standards), almost unknown, old white male who almost won over Hillary in the primaries. Even with all the mass media ignoring him. Have you seen his followers and his rallies... It was breathtaking. So much consistent enthusiasm wasn't a fluke. People have been saying stop talking about Sanders he lost fair and square... Sure, but I an still stunned how many votes he got, not how few (a bit of both in a way).

DNC should have stopped everything and reevaluated their strategy right there and then. Oh well

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#227

Post by throwaw181ay »

> We lead the free world

i sincerely hate when people from anywhere say that. During the second half of the 20th century, the american government was directly or indirectly responsible for at least half of the conflicts on that planet. Americans need to wake up, they are as much the beacon of tyranny than they are the beacon of the "free world". It's just that most Americans don't care about what their own government does abroad. And it didn't start with Bush II.

> And we do it by taking the higher moral ground,

I absolutely hate that too, this is so arrogant. There is really a disconnect between how some Americans view themselves and how the rest of the world see them for what their government actually is: playing war-games on a constant basis and selling the PAX AMERICANA as something just.

I'm sorry but i'm extremely disappointed by Jeff here, this is just wrong and insulting for the rest of the world.

For all the bad that Trump does, I hope that at least it will tone down this sense of superiority coming from Americans, because that's the source of many problems.

> how negligent and dangerous Trump is as the leader of the free world.

You're not the leader of the free world, not according to most of the rest of the world, because of your foreign policy post WWII. You supported dictatorships, rigged democratic elections, trained death squads in south america, killed millions in Vietnam, spoiled their land with agent orange, invaded countries like Iraq that did nothing to you, all in the name of "freedom" ... freedom for whom?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#228

Post by majewsky »

icu wrote: post #171
rtpg wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question now: how big is his base? His approval is in free fall. What's the low point? 40%? 30%? 20%? The French president was at one point at 8% approval.

The only thing that matters now is Trump's approval in the next election. If he keeps his voter base happy and is seen to be actually doing more things right than wrong he may even pick up more votes. I honestly can't think of one Democrat at the moment who can take Trump on. They would have to be whiter than fresh snow and 'straight talking' and pro-economic growth and sensible immigration enough to swing Trump supp…

There is another way. Trump mostly won because of voter disenfranchisement: It's not that more people voted Republicans than last time, but a lot fewer people voted Democrats than 2008 and 2012. A good Democratic candidate could pull these people back to the polls.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#229

Post by dustinmr »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #221
d3ckard wrote: post #68

Nice post, though there are some caveats. As a Pole (as some of you know, we do have some issues here too, though many would disagree) I feel at least a bit competent to give you a bit of advice, so you can get out of it better than we did. 1. Donald Trump is not your enemy, nor a problem. He is a manifestation of the problem, which is current state of your society and problems you have. Do not believe that you can j…

>You have people working full-time who cannot afford the living. You have one of the most expensive and unreachable for many healthcare systems. You do have degressive taxing systems. You have much smaller middle class that you are used too. These are all very, very real problems. The problem is, they're not solved by voting Republican, but a lot of people simply think of themselves as Republicans. So there are a lot…

Here's the thing, they're not solved by voting Democrat either.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#230

Post by grzm »

throwaw181ay wrote: post #227

> We lead the free world i sincerely hate when people from anywhere say that. During the second half of the 20th century, the american government was directly or indirectly responsible for at least half of the conflicts on that planet. Americans need to wake up, they are as much the beacon of tyranny than they are the beacon of the "free world". It's just that most Americans don't care about what their own government…

Please stop creating throwaway accounts to post purely political rants.
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