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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#221

Post by SixSigma »

brogrammernot wrote: post #193
Bartweiss wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've held this basic theory for a while, and it seems to explain a lot of things about the state of software engineering. Most visibly, there's a wild disagreement about whether we have too many programmers, or not enough. Big tech companies consistently say that they struggle to find programmers, while contrarians at places like The Atlantic love writing pieces about how we're education way more programmers than we…

I think you hit the nail on the head. There isn't really a need for a lot of companies to hire a CS degree. Wordpress management? You can hire a Jr PHP developer and be fine. They don't teach PHP in school. Need someone to manage your non e-commerce website? Web Developer. Again, not something they seem to teach CS majors but the title could say Web Developer or Front End Engineer When I took a glance at the job mark…

What I found even worse in the job market is that the job requirements say CS Degree but the job description doesn't match.

I've ended up going to University to get a degree because I was being screened out of job applications before my experience counted for anything.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#222

Post by Amezarak »

randomemployee wrote: post #88
Amezarak wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think it's location, location, location, not necessarily whether or not the software is the product. I've worked for consulting companies, product companies, and right now I work for a sort-of back-office organization. The best I've been able to do, despite several years of experience, good references, inside connections, a graduate degree, and being pretty (I think, anyway) personable is...75k. And I don't…

Slight counter, I'm working remotely (I live in small town in the Philadelphia suburbs) for a company with the US office outside of Boston, making 135k right now.

Congratulations - that's my dream. :)

Any tips on what to look for? I've interviewed with a few remote teams and they weren't able to give me anything close to that.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#223

Post by Terr_ »

morgante wrote: post #56
stdbrouw wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the conclusion follows from the data. It's not implausible that in computer science you need to "get" a whole bunch of things before it clicks and you start being productive, and a bimodal distribution of grades would then be indicative only of people who are further along in the learning process vs. those that have not yet reached that critical point, rather than any huge difference in intrinsic abilit…

It also requires the right kinds of insights. I know plenty of people who somehow manage to make it all the way through an undergrad degree without ever really getting programming. They then managed to get a low-skill job at a low-caliber employer, where they produce bad code, poorly. But because even bad employers need code these days, they manage to maintain a job in programming despite never really understanding i…

Reminds me of "Benny's Rules", regarding the complicated (and incorrect) math rules a child inferred through trial and error.

http://blog.mathed.net/2011/07/rysk-erlwangers-bennys-concep...

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#224

Post by dionidium »

morgante wrote: post #209
dionidium wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NYC is the only city in the US where the majority of people go without one, because the infrastructure is in place to support it. I think you've actually got this backwards. People in NYC would prefer to own a car, just like everybody else in America. The difference is that in NYC it's a lot more expensive and difficult (traffic, parking, etc). That, coupled with the presence of a strong transit system, results in…

> I think you've actually got this backwards. People in NYC would prefer to own a car, just like everybody else in America. What a weird remark. Have you considered that there might be people who don't fetishize cars like you do? I very specifically hate driving. I specifically choose which cities I live in so I can avoid driving. I've tried transport in most cities outside of NYC. It's really not on the level of NYC…

>Have you considered that there might be people who don't fetishize cars like you do?

I feel like you might have this loaded as a sort of generic thing you say to people, but it doesn't apply here. I'm talking about the tradeoffs people make in general. Calling me a car fetishist is a non sequitur.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#225

Post by dionidium »

ghaff wrote: post #208
dionidium wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been looking at a move from a very low COL area to a very high one, recently, and this is spot on. But there's one huge caveat: you have to be willing to sacrifice on housing. Housing will swallow everything in any real apples-to-apples comparison. But if you can accept that you'll be living in a much worse apartment, then the COL differences aren't as extreme as they're generally stated to be.

That's one of the reasons that COL factors, by themselves, don't mean an awful lot. If I were to move into a city it's clearly not even meaningful to talk about the price of the equivalent property to my exurban house on a fair bit of land. The relevant comparison is to what I would/could realistically and at least somewhat contentedly live in. As I said elsewhere you need to make that after-tax housing cost comparis…

>If I were to move into a city it's clearly not even meaningful to talk about the price of the equivalent property to my exurban house on a fair bit of land.

To be fair, it's a lot worse than that. I live in a nice, spacious, modern loft in the middle of an urban area. We're not talking about a big, suburban house. Just a nice apartment. I'm looking at apartments in the high-COL city that resemble my current apartment's entryway in size and in conditions I wouldn't even consider here.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#226

Post by morgante »

rayiner wrote: post #217
morgante wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you would be unlikely to save any money at all living in SF on 150k This statement is farcical. You do realize that the median wage in SF is less than $100k. How do you think those people are living? Have you actually lived in SF or NYC? You're totally out of touch with the actual costs. Yes, housing is expensive. But you can still easily get a solid apartment for $3k/m. Add in another $2k/m for food (high!) and th…

> Unlike you, I'm actually using real numbers and the reality on the ground. I made $150k/year in NYC and managed to save almost $100k/year. Who does your taxes? Your take-home in NYC on a $150k/year salary is going to be like $90k. Spend $5k/month on food and rent, and you're saving like $20-30k/year.

I have a good CPA and am very aggressive with putting all my savings into tax-advantaged accounts. Admittedly my actual income ends up being more than $150k/yr thanks to capital gains and some freelance work. Looking back on the years where I was just a straight salary worker (earning $150k/yr) my annual savings were closer to $60k.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#227

Post by morgante »

dionidium wrote: post #224
morgante wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you've actually got this backwards. People in NYC would prefer to own a car, just like everybody else in America. What a weird remark. Have you considered that there might be people who don't fetishize cars like you do? I very specifically hate driving. I specifically choose which cities I live in so I can avoid driving. I've tried transport in most cities outside of NYC. It's really not on the level of NYC…

>Have you considered that there might be people who don't fetishize cars like you do? I feel like you might have this loaded as a sort of generic thing you say to people, but it doesn't apply here. I'm talking about the tradeoffs people make in general. Calling me a car fetishist is a non sequitur.

You literally just assumed that millions of people would rather own a car but are forced not to instead of considering the possibility that some people simply don't want to drive.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#228

Post by jdmichal »

phkahler wrote: post #145
charlesdm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you enjoy something, it's much easier to put a lot of time in to figure it out. For example, I became a software entrepreneur about five years ago making money from my own projects. Dealing with a lot of business related "work", I actually discovered I also really like law, in particular tax law. A friend of mine was a pretty good lawyer (hung up his hat to do more entrepreneurial stuff) and I occasionally a…

>> Well, if you enjoy something, it's much easier to put a lot of time in to figure it out. I started programming as a kid because I wanted to make games. It was fun. The problem was that I didn't get the more formal stuff until college, and it made me a much better programmer. But I could also see how boring the data structures class would be to someone with no experience because they really didn't have insight into…

This is a problem in general in math-based education, and sometimes in science also. The solution is problem-based teaching, where the problem is introduced before the solution. By establishing the need for something first, it makes it much more concrete.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#229

Post by wnevets »

goostavos wrote: post #183
gautamdivgi wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the point remains. Why are people who can't code getting the CS or EE degrees? Generally, the degree is supposed to indicate some sort of sufficiency with development. Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$.

>Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$. I 100% believe this is true. When I was in college it was pretty staggering to see my fellow classmates receive passing grades and get shoveled through the programs despite never grasping the basic fundamentals of CS. These were people who, at the end of CS 101, still couldn't tell you the difference between a string and an int, who after CS 202 _still_ co…

>It seems true even for the higher tier degrees too. It seems even a masters degree isn't a good indicator. In the past year alone I've watched several guys with masters enter and then promptly leave our startup due to having just absolutely no idea how to write software. :(

is this a problem with degrees or the interview process? How did they get the job without ever proving they knew anything about software?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#230

Post by thesimpsons1022 »

beachstartup wrote: post #194
kgwgk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are they not transparent like finance guys, lawyers, doctors etc. What makes you think that the situation in other fields is any different?

because it is. don't you know any bankers, lawyers, or doctors? discussing how much they get paid is a big part of the culture.

i think there is a lot of embarrassment discussing salary because it shows how you're valued by the company. I get uncomfortable discussing mine because i don't want to provoke jealousy. However, if i was paid less than most i'd find it embarrassing to admit the company found me less valuable than others.
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