Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#221

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:03 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #118

gfody wrote: post #37

Something about this bothers me. Time-keeping is already not straightforward for an engineer. Because the work is done in our heads and doesn't necessarily stop just because the workday is over. You don't have to be sitting at a keyboard for your head to be grinding on a problem. More often some problem takes hold of you, occupying some mental bandwidth even while you're away, at home trying to enjoy time with your f…

I'm skeptical of claims that developers are underpaid. Maybe I feel differently about this because I'm not in a major tech hub and am not faced with the prospect of buying a multimillion dollar cottage, but when I compare my life as a software developer to that of more or less anyone else I know, including doctors and lawyers, I struggle to find a single person who seems to have a more comfortable life than me. I'm n…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#222

Post by nommm-nommm » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:06 PM UTC

erklik wrote: post #197

nilkn wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical of claims that developers are underpaid. Maybe I feel differently about this because I'm not in a major tech hub and am not faced with the prospect of buying a multimillion dollar cottage, but when I compare my life as a software developer to that of more or less anyone else I know, including doctors and lawyers, I struggle to find a single person who seems to have a more comfortable life than me. I'm n…

I sort of agree with what you're saying but just wanna point out that you may not have gone to school and have have a loan etc. But many many software engineers do. Many of us go to uni and study a traditional degree and therefore, have a lot of loans etc as well as spend 3 to 4 years in University. Also, learning for a software engineer is pretty much forever since the moment you stop learning is your downfall in so…

I went to school and graduated with large loans because my parents didn't pay for my schooling. And I agree with the parent poster 100%. Saying software developers are underpaid is on of the silliest and out of touch things I've ever heard.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#223

Post by monort » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:15 PM UTC

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #19

So while this is really good for people that have dependents at home, or other consistently demanding activities. I would not enjoy such an arrangement. The arrangement I'd be most excited by is a team with forced three month sabbaticals yearly (or honestly even 6 month sabbaticals). Of-course with the normal amount of vacation time added as well. The way it would work is: Say a team is supposed to have 8 people. Hir…

Do you do extended vacation between jobs?

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#224

Post by crazy_ant » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:18 PM UTC

solotronics wrote: post #185

crazy_ant wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's cute but not how the world works. Employers will rarely explicitly ask you to do free overtime because that's illegal in many jurisdictions. What happens instead is this: an unrealistic deadline will be imposed and you will be expected to meet it. How you will go about doing that is up to you, but it usually assumes working overtime if you want to keep your job.

Maybe push back? You aren't a slave and by allowing yourself to be forced to work for free you devalue your work and ours as well.

I fully agree with you. The issue is not people like you and me, it's 22 year old kids who are willing to work 16 hours a day and undercut everyone else.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#225

Post by obstacle1 » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:22 PM UTC

andrewguenther wrote: post #115

obstacle1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is the case for the specific type of person who ends up working where you work. But it isn't universal. Many of us don't need "adult supervision" in order to be highly productive.

> But it isn't universal. Neither are people being highly productive without "adult supervision." In all seriousness, I find your comment incredibly insulting. I gave an opinion based off of experience, that doesn't mean that I'm some sort of child that needs to be supervised. > the specific type of person who ends up working where you work I typically prefer to keep my comments here civil, but seriously? Fuck you.

Your post was a general statement that working from home is usually light on working.

Stop and think about that for a second. Many of us here are 100% remote. How are we to interpret your general statement, except as insulting?

A little self-awareness would be far more helpful to you than lashing out in anger.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#226

Post by nommm-nommm » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:25 PM UTC

gfody wrote: post #37

Something about this bothers me. Time-keeping is already not straightforward for an engineer. Because the work is done in our heads and doesn't necessarily stop just because the workday is over. You don't have to be sitting at a keyboard for your head to be grinding on a problem. More often some problem takes hold of you, occupying some mental bandwidth even while you're away, at home trying to enjoy time with your f…

Don't bring your work home with you on a regular basis. It requires effort because it's easy to bring your work home with you no matter your job. Keep work at work.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#227

Post by Encaitar » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

andrewguenther wrote: post #39

pjmorris wrote: post #36

'Amazon is piloting 25% pay cuts'. I wonder if the group that does this will be viewed as lesser, e.g. work on less interesting projects, be less likely to be promoted, than the "40" hour employees.

The pilot is a team-wide thing. You won't have a 30-hour employee on a 40-hour team. 30-hour employees will work with 30-hour employees under a 30-hour manager. I think that will help offset some of this, but it does put a limit on what projects you could work on. For the pilot, anyway. I'm interested to see how this pans out.

This might be a team wide thing at Amazon but I have seen mixing the two in a single team. Its called reduced hours and can be very helpful for people coming back from maternity leave (as well as others).

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#228

Post by cema » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #118

gfody wrote: post #37

Something about this bothers me. Time-keeping is already not straightforward for an engineer. Because the work is done in our heads and doesn't necessarily stop just because the workday is over. You don't have to be sitting at a keyboard for your head to be grinding on a problem. More often some problem takes hold of you, occupying some mental bandwidth even while you're away, at home trying to enjoy time with your f…

I'm skeptical of claims that developers are underpaid. Maybe I feel differently about this because I'm not in a major tech hub and am not faced with the prospect of buying a multimillion dollar cottage, but when I compare my life as a software developer to that of more or less anyone else I know, including doctors and lawyers, I struggle to find a single person who seems to have a more comfortable life than me. I'm n…

I agree with the main message: we are not underpaid. Considering the risks we are taking (both in life and in career) we live comfortable lives indeed.

A side note: when you said "I didn't have to pass a single licensing exam" I immediately thought of the way our profession tends to have that kind of exam every time we interview each other. A big part of interview for a software developer is based on the exam-type material; this is very different from the way other professionals, even engineers, have their interviews. (Does not contradict your message, just a note.)

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#229

Post by mark_l_watson » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

Makes sense to me. For most of my 40+ years of working, I worked a 32 hour work week and this was mostly for large corporations. I simply informed HR that I would not be working Monday's and to pay me 80% of my salary. It always amazed me that I was able to do this decade after decade, but the trick was that I worked really hard the 4 days I was in the office.

I mostly used the extra time for friends and family, and to write books.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#230

Post by frostburg » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 1:35 PM UTC

deathandtexas wrote: post #210

frostburg wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, medical school is intellectually easier than a compsci degree, even if it takes more time and more rote learning. My friends who are doctors tend to have terrible work schedules which they can hardly escape, on the other hand. Not that this actually matters a lot in compensation, given that in the circumstances it probably doesn't have a lot of effect on the supply of doctors.

As someone who completed medical school but has a bachelor's degree in CS, I have to disagree with your first statement.

I actually did the reverse (decided that I wouldn't have been good at actually being a doctor, dealing with patients, etc.); I happen to still help friends with exams and, well, there is basically nothing in there that is harder to understand than the first year calculus exam that you have to take in a computer science or engineering course. You need to acquire a working multi-level understanding of very complex systems, but I have found the chemistry->biochemistry->cell signaling and regulation->tissue etc. chain more intuitive for most people than the electronics->system architecture->machine code->programming language-> etc. chain. I'm interested in reading what made you feel that the opposite was true; maybe the issues with incomplete understanding of many processes that pop up in medicine?