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When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

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Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#221
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High standard human rights existed in the west, they just weren't equally applied. In China, human rights are equally applied, just at a very low standard. So the west only had to apply what human rights already existed universally to "develop," and there was already moral pressure to do so from unfairness. China already has "fairness", but no where to go after that; there is definitely no moral pressure from within…

I'm not certain that there were (to a modern eye) a high standard of human rights for anyone. Treatment of slaves and the lack of women's rights are well known examples, but there are a large number of historical practices that paint a pretty inhumane society, including punishments (e.g. the stocks), amusements (e.g. gouging aka rough and tumble), and community standards for the treatment of children (`beat the devil…

Maybe look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_rights

> While belief in the sanctity of human life has ancient precedents in many religions of the world, the idea of human rights, that is, the notion that a human being has a set of inviolable rights simply on grounds of being human, began during the era of renaissance humanism in the early modern period. The European wars of religion and the civil wars of seventeenth-century England gave rise to the philosophy of liberalism and belief in human rights became a central concern of European intellectual culture during the eighteenth-century Age of Enlightenment. These ideas of human rights lay at the core of the American and French Revolutions which occurred toward the end of that century. Democratic evolution through the nineteenth century paved the way for the advent of universal suffrage in the twentieth century. Two world wars led to the creation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

> The post-war era saw human rights movements for special interest groups such as feminism and the civil rights of African-Americans. The human rights of members of the Soviet bloc emerged in the 1970s along with workers' rights in the West. The movement quickly jelled as social activism and political rhetoric in many nations put it high on the world agenda.[1] By the 21st century, Moyn has argued, the human rights movement expanded beyond its original anti-totalitarianism to include numerous causes involving humanitarianism and social and economic development in the Developing World.[2]

> Some notions of righteousness present in ancient law and religion is sometimes retrospectively included under the term "human rights". While Enlightenment philosophers suggest a secular social contract between the rulers and the ruled, ancient traditions derived similar conclusions from notions of divine law, and, in Hellenistic philosophy, natural law.

One can say "human rights" and still not have accomplished the goal yet, but if one cannot say "human rights" at all, there is no goal in sight. The Chinese media always complains that "human rights" is a western-biased concept, not appropriate for China, and at least we can agree on the first part. Human rights was a concept in the west, even if it had flaws, it was never even a concept in China (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_values).

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan is not China. Where in China is TSMC building cutting edge semiconductor fab?

The Republic of China is not recognised by the UN. It is no more a state than Transnistria or South Ossetia.

The UN is totally irrelevant here. Taiwan operates as an independent country in every practical way. (So does Hong Kong, kinda, but Taiwan even more so.)

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#223
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that China outplayed the West here by a wide margin. For some reason, the West has let China get away with extremely protectionist trade policies the likes of which no one else in the world would dare even attempt. I think this was a combination of fear that isolating China vs creating a high degree of economic interdependence could lead to war down the line, and a lack of control over Western companie…

Your comment sounds like it's coming from ten years ago or something. China may (or may not, for all I know) have beaten the West in the game of getting the technology it wants but the country has enough structural problems that it's chances of getting ahead of the West broadly are looking very dim. Problems: Horrific pollution, huge loans to inefficient state-run industries, massive real state and infrastructure mal…

The funny thing is that even your comment sounds like coming from ten years ago. I remember reading pundits talk about the coming collapse of China for almost 20 years now.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#224
post #32

> But my guess is that if the American ride-sharing company had been more successful, China would have put a Mao-sized thumb on the scales. Anyone remember when GM had to be bailed out, but at the time, they were actually generating profits in China and it was one of their few bright spots? Ford likewise. I just don't buy this.

Well some members of my family own a factory making car parts. Many parts ship to Ford plants in China. China recently created a new rule saying Ford cannot buy parts from the US. So we either had to build a plant in China, or stop shipping to Ford. We stopped shipping to Ford. They were our largest customer.

Wait, what? Can you point us to the rule? It sounds like the WTO might be interested.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it a problem if China develops a higher GDP than the US. Its not a problem for the people. It might be a problem to politicians that want to tell a story, but wishing china to do worse economically is truly backwards. If china comes out with better technology than the us, better products and services, cheaper and all that, the whole world gets better. If you dont believe that, then you must for the sake of con…

China is repressive and has very low standards for human rights. If China becomes more powerful they may decide to conquer the US properly. This may be along way off but this is the fear that's behind not wanting China to surpass the US economically.

The US has a horrible human rights history. The country started with genocide of native americans. It enslaved and murdered millions of africans. It still has very racist tendencies. It killed several million koreans, vietnamese and cambodians (indirectly). Then there is Iraq and Afghanistan. There are a lot of really horrible things the US did that is on par with the Nazis and the worse we've seen from many other countries. The US is good at hiding or ignoring its atrocities. I don't think China is better or worse. But I don't see why it should be vilified when the US (and many other 1st world countries) have done much worse things to each other and to the 3rd world. In fact, I think all 3rd world countries should grow their internal markets in a similar way until they can become 1st world countries.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#226
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is repressive and has very low standards for human rights. If China becomes more powerful they may decide to conquer the US properly. This may be along way off but this is the fear that's behind not wanting China to surpass the US economically.

Chinese civilization is different from western civilization, specially in its habit to absorb other culture, instead of conquering them. China had a Mongol dynasty, a Manchu dynasty. But it never rode to the other side of the world to force remote populations to change their religion or political system.

This interests me. Do you know of any good books, articles, or other sources I could learn more about this topic? Specifically your first sentence.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#227
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment sounds like it's coming from ten years ago or something. China may (or may not, for all I know) have beaten the West in the game of getting the technology it wants but the country has enough structural problems that it's chances of getting ahead of the West broadly are looking very dim. Problems: Horrific pollution, huge loans to inefficient state-run industries, massive real state and infrastructure mal…

> Horrific pollution Like how the US had horrible pollution during and after the industrial revolution and never got anywhere? China's going to get their Clean Air Act. Just give it some time.

My list wasn't about China being evil or "worse than the US". I wish them well but the combination of problems they false has sufficient to make their economy stall. And with a stalled economy, China will have a hard time affording a Clean Air Act, adding to the vicious cycle they are experiencing.

Further, repression also make the equivalent of a Clean Air Act hard. The pattern currently is the central authorities issue a call to protect the environment (usually kind of ad-hoc) but local authorities ignore it and no one can complain because all the authorities are beyond criticism.

Just like the way you have the President start an anti-corruption campaign but the President's cronies exempt.

China boosters for years said these problems didn't matter. Maybe they didn't matter for those years but now, they are here in spades.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#228
post #28
post #7

The West and China are playing a global chess game and have been for some time. An impoverished China was not in the West's interests and so they agreed to buy all kinds of lowish tech Chinese made goods. In return most jurisdictions enforced a balance of trade with China, with the exception of the US. On their end China insisted on joint ventures and technology transfer to the extent Western companies would comply.…

It seems to me that China outplayed the West here by a wide margin. For some reason, the West has let China get away with extremely protectionist trade policies the likes of which no one else in the world would dare even attempt. I think this was a combination of fear that isolating China vs creating a high degree of economic interdependence could lead to war down the line, and a lack of control over Western companie…

Maybe it's simpler than that. Maybe Western men just like Asian women. Love after all, trumps everything.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike the EU, China has the capability to build companies that could rival top US players. So it's unsurprising that China takes the uncompromising approach to foreign investment that they do. I'd love to see an American's reaction to a speech where Xi Jinping exclaims that he will ensure that all Americans start using Baidu as their search engine.

Europeans had been promised and conditioned that their countries would give a shit about privacy. It would have seemed unlikely to European founders that they'd be allowed to run a blatant commercial spyware operation like Google or Facebook; and in fact I'd bet that they would have met fierce regulatory resistance... until Google and Facebook waltzed in from the US and surprise, nobody put up any resistance until th…

> Europeans had been promised and conditioned that their countries would give a shit about privacy

Do Europeans really care that much about privacy? As an outsider, I don't see much fighting for privacy coming from Europe.

> blatant commercial spyware operation like Google or Facebook

What kind of regulation do you think would stop this "spyware" as you call it? Are you really going to restrict an internet firm from collecting user information with the user's consent and then selling that information? What regulation would you do?

Something like "right to be forgotten" is the absolute worst direction to go. When I first heard about it, I knew the regulators were idiots. That is patently opposed to free expression.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#230

This is horseshit nationalism, again. What Chinese companies have made huge inroads into the American tech world? Every time they do, some commentator (probably the same guy who wrote this article) will show up to shake a big stick at them and try to chase them off, with tales of impending Chinese takeover. The real story, there and here, is one of large corporations using whatever means they can, including their fri…

Money infiltrates politics because politics has power that normal money can't achieve. Remove that power from politics, and the money will leave as well.
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