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Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

economist.com

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Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#221

Post by tonyedgecombe »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #151
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps Corbyn genuinely is unelectable.

Based on what? The fact he won the Labour leadership election by a landslide? The fact that the Labour party membership has nearly doubled compared to last year? The fact that Labour have held all 4 seats contested in by elections since he was elected leader ( http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/by-e... )? The fact that Labour largely maintained their lead in local government representatives durin…

Winning the leadership isn't the same as winning an election, both Labour and the Tories have a history of choosing leaders from the extremes of their party then not being able to get into power.

Labour needs to stop blaming the media for their woes and get on with making themselves acceptable to the general electorate.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#222

Post by madshiva »

Fenntrek wrote: post #140
madshiva wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally wrong. The current unemployment of EU is at 9%. That's the same unemployment rate of 2002-2004 before the "Great Recession" of 2007-2008. Then YES, the EU is recovering, but slowly and not all the country recover well. We all suffered from the recession, even in Switzerland where we have the less unemployment rate. This was not because of the EU, but because all bank was infected with subprime then th…

I think you misunderstand. Yes, the EU as a whole looks good... It's when you peel away the EU flag and look at individual countries you see that some economies are in the gutter pretty much due to countries having vastly different needs. Whats in say Germany's interests isn't in Italy/Greece's interest economically, economies are having crisis points constantly and continuous band aids instead of enacting policy tha…

I said that the figures were wrong, the cause of the Recession is not only the fault of Europe since it was already the case before.

I life and work in the recession since the beginning. I can't handle anymore. Old people need to pay for the all the shit they have done.

The Europe need to collapse, I mean the EU economy but not in the mentality. I'm Swiss, I'm EU but only for the map, not for the economy. We are not together and like you say we will always see was it benefit for us, not for other. It's an human behavior. If they really want a global united EU, they need to make a big unique country but this will never happen.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#223

Post by blahi »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #210
blahi wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already addressed what needed addressing. I told you that "people to choose democratic representatives that stick up for the interests of the masses" is an impossible task. You prefer to ignore that and/or pretend that it is not true. So I told you that your idea cannot be put in practice because we don't live in a perfect world but you don't acknowledge that. What is left there to say?

> I told you that "people to choose democratic representatives that stick up for the interests of the masses" is an impossible task. You prefer to ignore that and/or pretend that it is not true. You made a large claim that was completely unsubstantiated. ZenoArrow didn't ignore the claim; he/she didn't believe it. On HN, that's your cue to provide some evidence to back up your claim. That's what's left to say. Provid…

Oh god this is embarrassing to be honest.

There is no one "interest of the people". There is no "people". There are different groups with different interests. Or are you proposing dictatorship of the proletariat? Because we know how that turned out, don't we?

If you want evidence of the above you need to look no further than a couple of weeks back to the Brexit vote. You have it there all.

- There is no disproportionate political influence by the rich. The majority of the rich said "don't do it! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T DO IT!".

- There is no rich vs. poor. One of the richest, most influential people on Earth, Rupert Murdoch, used his media influence to sway the vote in favor of leaving.

- People unable or not interested in forming a balanced opinion. The decision was made because of demagoguery and blatantly false claims.

- Power-hungry, opportunistic politicians riding the wave, no matter what the wave is and then back tracking on their promises and claims.

Same thing happened in the Greek elections. A politician came, promised all sort of things, and in the end did exactly the opposite of what he promised.

So in the end people acted against their self-interest. Because they don't know what their interest is and because politicians tricked them. Story as old as mankind itself. There should be no need to "prove it". If it wasn't self-evident, then you are just out of touch with reality. But here you go, I spent 10 minutes explaining things that should be self-evident, to people who claim that they understand the politics and science of reconciling interests and opinions.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#224

Post by eli_gottlieb »

charlesdm wrote: post #73
pille wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are laws saying banks cannot receive state aid > every rule is meant to be broken if the situation warrants it Why did anyone bother with the rule in the first place then? Wasn't this exactly the kind of situation it was supposed to cover? It's not like an Italian financial crisis was off the radar when this rule got written. > Does that really mean we should let a massive bank (or multiple banks) go bankrupt…

1. What works for (relatively) small Cypriot banks will probably not work for larger system banks. The bail in rules worked well in part because the Cypriot banks held a lot of foreign, Russian deposits. If Deutsche goes bust.. winter is coming. 2. Bankruptcy will lead to local deposit funds having to reimburse €100,000 per person, per bank. Which will ultimately be paid for by the taxpayer. It might actually be chea…

>If Deutsche goes bust.. winter is coming.

For 90% of the world (ahaha), winter has already been here since 2008. It's about time the banks were exposed to the weather, I'd say.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#225

Post by ZenoArrow »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #221
ZenoArrow wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what? The fact he won the Labour leadership election by a landslide? The fact that the Labour party membership has nearly doubled compared to last year? The fact that Labour have held all 4 seats contested in by elections since he was elected leader ( http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/by-e... )? The fact that Labour largely maintained their lead in local government representatives durin…

Winning the leadership isn't the same as winning an election, both Labour and the Tories have a history of choosing leaders from the extremes of their party then not being able to get into power. Labour needs to stop blaming the media for their woes and get on with making themselves acceptable to the general electorate.

> "Winning the leadership isn't the same as winning an election, both Labour and the Tories have a history of choosing leaders from the extremes of their party then not being able to get into power."

With that you're implying that Corbyn's views are out of sync with the general public. Which views in particular do you believe are the most extreme in this regard?

> "Labour needs to stop blaming the media for their woes and get on with making themselves acceptable to the general electorate."

Like it or not, the media plays a massive role in shaping public opinion. Whilst the current civil war in the Labour party is damaging the respectability of the Labour party, a large portion of the public will accept whatever they're told in the media as gospel. You only have to look at what happened as a result of the Brexit media campaigns to see how easily people on both sides were swayed by demagoguery, but if you want more specific examples it'd be easy enough to provide some.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#226

Post by blahi »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #210
blahi wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already addressed what needed addressing. I told you that "people to choose democratic representatives that stick up for the interests of the masses" is an impossible task. You prefer to ignore that and/or pretend that it is not true. So I told you that your idea cannot be put in practice because we don't live in a perfect world but you don't acknowledge that. What is left there to say?

> I told you that "people to choose democratic representatives that stick up for the interests of the masses" is an impossible task. You prefer to ignore that and/or pretend that it is not true. You made a large claim that was completely unsubstantiated. ZenoArrow didn't ignore the claim; he/she didn't believe it. On HN, that's your cue to provide some evidence to back up your claim. That's what's left to say. Provid…

I just love the downvote.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#227

Post by tonyedgecombe »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #225
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Winning the leadership isn't the same as winning an election, both Labour and the Tories have a history of choosing leaders from the extremes of their party then not being able to get into power. Labour needs to stop blaming the media for their woes and get on with making themselves acceptable to the general electorate.

> "Winning the leadership isn't the same as winning an election, both Labour and the Tories have a history of choosing leaders from the extremes of their party then not being able to get into power." With that you're implying that Corbyn's views are out of sync with the general public. Which views in particular do you believe are the most extreme in this regard? > "Labour needs to stop blaming the media for their woe…

Just his policies on nationalisation are enough to put me off, some of us are old enough to remember what a disaster nationalised industries were in the past.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#228

Post by ZenoArrow »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #227
ZenoArrow wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Winning the leadership isn't the same as winning an election, both Labour and the Tories have a history of choosing leaders from the extremes of their party then not being able to get into power." With that you're implying that Corbyn's views are out of sync with the general public. Which views in particular do you believe are the most extreme in this regard? > "Labour needs to stop blaming the media for their woe…

Just his policies on nationalisation are enough to put me off, some of us are old enough to remember what a disaster nationalised industries were in the past.

I'd recommend watching this documentary on the NHS if you can spare the time:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ultKvnw2h3Q

It covers, amongst other things, how public services are mismanaged on purpose to make privatisation seem like progress. One of the sources of information it touches on is a book by the Conservative MP Oliver Letwin that lays out the approach taken for privitising public services, so it's not some form of conspiracy theory, the book is publicly available.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#229

Post by ZenoArrow »

blahi wrote: post #223
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I told you that "people to choose democratic representatives that stick up for the interests of the masses" is an impossible task. You prefer to ignore that and/or pretend that it is not true. You made a large claim that was completely unsubstantiated. ZenoArrow didn't ignore the claim; he/she didn't believe it. On HN, that's your cue to provide some evidence to back up your claim. That's what's left to say. Provid…

Oh god this is embarrassing to be honest. There is no one "interest of the people". There is no "people". There are different groups with different interests. Or are you proposing dictatorship of the proletariat? Because we know how that turned out, don't we? If you want evidence of the above you need to look no further than a couple of weeks back to the Brexit vote. You have it there all. - There is no disproportion…

> "So in the end people acted against their self-interest. Because they don't know what their interest is and because politicians tricked them."

You fix that by having a more informed population. You can do this in multiple ways, but primarily the fight is in breaking the stranglehold of the mass media by popularising news outlets with more in-depth and clear analyses of the issues we face. It's not an impossible fight, it's one we can make a difference in. If you don't believe things will change, then step back and let people who are willing to make a difference put in the work to do it for you.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#230

Post by blahi »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #229
blahi wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh god this is embarrassing to be honest. There is no one "interest of the people". There is no "people". There are different groups with different interests. Or are you proposing dictatorship of the proletariat? Because we know how that turned out, don't we? If you want evidence of the above you need to look no further than a couple of weeks back to the Brexit vote. You have it there all. - There is no disproportion…

> "So in the end people acted against their self-interest. Because they don't know what their interest is and because politicians tricked them." You fix that by having a more informed population. You can do this in multiple ways, but primarily the fight is in breaking the stranglehold of the mass media by popularising news outlets with more in-depth and clear analyses of the issues we face. It's not an impossible fig…

Oh, so people who pick apart your flawed plans should just shut the fuck up and let you agitate for a global revolution? Because that's what you are doing. You did not argue for better education. You argued for a change in the financial system. One that requires a massive change in people's reasoning abilities in order to work out as advertised.

"Oh hey guys, let's do this very cool thing where we will all live way better. just don't read the fine print which says that everybody needs to be very smart and educated in order for all of this to work." And when they follow you and your idea touches reality and your plan shatters? What then? Because we have it very good now and you want to improve it a bit, but if (when) you fail we will have it A LOT worse. Risk vs. reward is not there at all.

If you want to improve things, go for it. But you are proposing to cure a common cold with a surgery.

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