Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

thetimes.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 297 posts

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#221

Post by brudgers »

cm3 wrote: post #5

The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a…

As a point of order, South Africa under apartheid was eminently stable. It maintained that stability with the violence that wealth affords, e.g. the aligned interests with US political policy makers that led to the sharing of intelligence. That's not to discount the concurrent alignment with racial politics in the US -- domestic intelligence concerned with Dr. King and Malcolm X and the currents that created a George Wallace presidential bid.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#222

Post by proksoup »

alienjr wrote: post #172
ck2 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that like the congressional committee headed by and filled with people who don't believe in science? https://www.google.com/search?q=congress+committee+anti+scie... Why would you expect any other oversight committee in any other field be competent?

Well, they were elected by a majority who doesn't believe in science. That's why it's strange that most of the people who believe in majority rule are surprised when democratic elections result in such outcomes.

Would an alternative be any better? Democracy seems the only way forward, the solution is education (difficult if not impossible).

The mob is ignorant so pick someone smart to be in charge? How do you pick? Who decides? Maybe the smartest people are the ones who take power already. Really the money is in charge.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#223

Post by nxzero »

viiaezumu wrote: post #150
nxzero wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the systematic abuses by the state authority in South Africa, at the time of Mandela's arrest, against the social and civil rights of a certain group of citizens due to ethnic prejudices, believe a some context is worth considering in deciding who was right and wrong.

The "abuses" by the Apartheid government was actually negligible compared to the violence South Africa has experienced since the unbanning of the ANC. http://issafrica.org/uploads/CQ7Thomson.pdf

Reviewed the document, though see no evidence to support your claim. What exactly is your point and the evidence supporting in and why do you feel the sources and methods used to collect it are valid?

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#224

Post by meowface »

Udik wrote: post #203
sandisk5 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course we don't call the Apartheid government "terrorists" for these crimes. Almost everyone agrees that the Apartheid government was horrible. Almost no one holds them up as a positive example. Conversely, almost everyone holds Mandela and his terrorist organization up as an example and as a hero despite them intentionally setting off bombs in civilian locations like shopping malls and restaurants.

Terrorism is sometimes the only weapon of those who fight against a much more powerful enemy. This doesn't mean that all terrorism is justifiable, but arresting your thought at words such as "terrorist" or "dictatorship" or "democracy" is silly. These are just arbitrary labels.

Ruthless, arbitrary slaughter of innocent civilians en masse is never justified, even if you are being oppressed.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#225

Post by fiatmoney »

Mandela & his organization were responsible for a terrorist (in the classical sense - using unfocused attacks on civilian populations as a bargaining chip and method of instilling fear) insurgency that killed thousands of people in incredibly brutal ways. The ascendancy of that government has resulted in South Africa turning from a reasonably prosperous & stable country into one of the most dangerous countries on earth, especially for the white minority, who is ~ one election away from genocide at any given moment.

Props on Mandela for being gracious in victory & not immediately going Full Zimbabwe, but it is insane to suggest that he was some sort of sainted figure that there was no reason to even fight.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#226

Post by nova22033 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #78
ZenoArrow wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I find bizarre about 9/11 is that very few people seem to openly question why the World Trade Center was amongst the top targets that day. Perhaps if people looked a little deeper into what the WTO does it might help us make better decisions going forward. In the interest of balance, the situation on 9/11 wasn't completely the fault of the US. Saudi Arabia appears to have been the main driving force behind…

> It's the oil money that's fuelling the conflict on both sides, if we cut that out of the equation I'm confident we would find it much easier to work towards peace in the Middle East. I agree, though even if the US solved its energy problems today, we (i.e. the entire Western world) need to survive the generation or two of pretty angry Middle-Easterns seeking revenge for their destroyed homes and killed families, as…

>seeking revenge for their destroyed homes and killed families,

15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were saudis. The London 7/7 bombers were raised in Britain. Most of the Paris/Belgium attackers were born in Europe.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#227

Post by proksoup »

nxzero wrote: post #220
c2the3rd wrote: post #207

I would like to thank all the people who had a comment on this article, but did not post it. Truly, you improve the community with your silence. I'm aware of my own hypocrisy on this point, but logical consistency would prevent this sentiment from ever being expressed. As it is, perhaps 5% of these comments know anything about what they are talking about. One of the biggest intellectual failings of the sort that freq…

>> "I'm aware of my own hypocrisy on this point" Given I commented, calling you out to explicitly state why you feel that my comments on this page somehow show that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I am also curious to hear why c2the3rd is so confident about the ignorance displayed here and why silence instead of noise is the solution. Hacker news seems to do a pretty good job of at least up voting the majority thoughts, and perhaps with some effort by all of us we can respond intelligently to those popular thoughts and also get up voted. Even if ignorant, isn't it worth discussing and responding to if that's what most people are thinking?

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#228

Post by beeboop »

c2the3rd wrote: post #207

I would like to thank all the people who had a comment on this article, but did not post it. Truly, you improve the community with your silence. I'm aware of my own hypocrisy on this point, but logical consistency would prevent this sentiment from ever being expressed. As it is, perhaps 5% of these comments know anything about what they are talking about. One of the biggest intellectual failings of the sort that freq…

I comment when knowingly being uninformed because the resulting discussion is what helps me understand the topic better. The result of this, looking back on my comment history, is that I can come across as a bit of an asshole who's often wrong. That is why anonymity is important to me online, because my posting here is not really indicative of my real world behavior. It's a safe place to challenge ideas and opinions, and I feel like I've grown and learned a lot from it.

This is my long way of saying, maybe other people have different purposes for posting than you.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#229

Post by brudgers »

nxzero wrote: post #220
c2the3rd wrote: post #207

I would like to thank all the people who had a comment on this article, but did not post it. Truly, you improve the community with your silence. I'm aware of my own hypocrisy on this point, but logical consistency would prevent this sentiment from ever being expressed. As it is, perhaps 5% of these comments know anything about what they are talking about. One of the biggest intellectual failings of the sort that freq…

>> "I'm aware of my own hypocrisy on this point" Given I commented, calling you out to explicitly state why you feel that my comments on this page somehow show that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Perhaps it would be more charitable to assume the comments are not in the 95%. I mean a link to a report from March could suggest being out in front on this sort of story to a degree that isn't worth picking a fight over.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#230

Post by proksoup »

The new title "an individual admitted something not the organization" is definitely more accurate, but represents an unsettling (to me) blame shift. I suppose the original title incorrectly placed responsibility on the organization and not the individual.
Post reply on HN