I have to ask: Why cars? Why are Google, Tesla and now Apple supposedly investing in cars? From the European point of view cars seem to be a dead end. More and more people live in an urban area and more and more young people use public transportation way more often, than cars. Additionally carsharing makes owning a car in a german city kinda obsolete. So... why cars?
Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
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Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#222I have to ask: Why cars? Why are Google, Tesla and now Apple supposedly investing in cars? From the European point of view cars seem to be a dead end. More and more people live in an urban area and more and more young people use public transportation way more often, than cars. Additionally carsharing makes owning a car in a german city kinda obsolete. So... why cars?
Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#223I have to ask: Why cars? Why are Google, Tesla and now Apple supposedly investing in cars? From the European point of view cars seem to be a dead end. More and more people live in an urban area and more and more young people use public transportation way more often, than cars. Additionally carsharing makes owning a car in a german city kinda obsolete. So... why cars?
If a move to a new manufacturing process such as carbon fibre gets thrown into the mix, that's three simultaneous revolutions.
Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#224I have to ask: Why cars? Why are Google, Tesla and now Apple supposedly investing in cars? From the European point of view cars seem to be a dead end. More and more people live in an urban area and more and more young people use public transportation way more often, than cars. Additionally carsharing makes owning a car in a german city kinda obsolete. So... why cars?
Imagine this future in Europe: pretty much no one owns a personal car. When you want to go somewhere you order a car on your phone and within 10 minutes a driverless car arrives and takes you to your detination. Your music plays through the sound system. The back seat is comfy and you have plenty of room to work or surf the internet. The trip could be to the hardware store, or hundreds of miles to visit family.
The self-driving utopia is primarily a suburban-centric dream, in many European cities (and a small handful of American ones) it's likely to be less efficient than what already exists.
Around here for example, the subway runs every 2-3 minutes and moves faster than cars - perhaps even self-driving ones. Trips are generally short enough that being able to work/surf the internet is a pretty marginal benefit, and the hardware store is so close that it would be nonsensical to use any vehicle to go there. All of the above pre-supposed long travel times and having to take a vehicle for even mundane every tasks - this is untrue for many cities, where cars (self-driving or otherwise) will likely be strictly inferior to the utility offered by walking or mass transit.
Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#225Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the phone industry just didn't think it possible that real ground breaking innovation in their industry was at all possible. They imagined a phone must have a physical keyboard, couldn't run a decent web browser and Microsoft was already selling the best mobile OS it was possible to make. It wasn't that they doubted Apple's commitment, they just didn't have the imagination. To be fair to them, Apple timed thi…
Cars are a terrible industry to get into. Building cars is massively capital and plant intensive, heavily dependent on supply chain logistics, and the market is already extremely competitive. The entire industry is well on its way to switching to electric and/or self-driving. Selling cars requires a huge dealer network rollout with huge up-front costs for training and spares. Doing it DIY would be insanely expensive,…
Copypasta from a comment I made on reddit about Tesla, many of these points also apply to Apple, especially the battery knowledge...
"You could argue that Tesla is in the battery pack business, and only incidentally in the car business. When electric cars ultimately take off, not only will their vehicles be perfectly positioned, they can sell the know-how to the slow moving incumbent car makers who are struggling to play catch up. They already have a likely unsurmountable lead in battery pack knowledge (things like software to control charging and discharging certain batteries to extend the life of the pack, compartmentalised batteries to reduce fire risk and crucial battery cooling systems), and their fleet gathers more data daily, while the rest of the car industry makes half-hearted hybrids, or technologically inferior, range-limited cars."
"They already own the high end, and once the Gigafactory pumps out batteries in full force, they'll own the low end, at least initially. Not to mention, another industry, solar PV, is growing and growing but badly needs storage tech to reach full potential. Guess who has a market-ready, solar PV-complimenting battery pack, and will soon have an enormous factory churning out battery packs? They are going to sell these packs to the world for decades."
> Building cars is massively capital and plant intensive
Apple has buckets of cash, they need something huge to move the needle and to show the world they're still innovative, and EVs are likely it.
> heavily dependent on supply chain logistics
Tim Cook's specialty. Apple has lots of experience in dealing with a complex supply chain dealing with huge volume.
> and the market is already extremely competitive.
I would argue the market for EVs/autonomous vehicles is quite different from ICE cars. For one thing, existing car makers are only dipping their toes in the EV market, instead of going toe to toe with Tesla directly (e.g. BMW has the i3 and i8, but no high-volume EV version of the 5 series to take on the Model S directly). So it's going to be a landgrab for EV market share. Existing car markers are heavily invested in extremely refined diesel and petrol engines and the associated paraphernalia like turbos, they probably wish EVs would just go away. Also, they rely on service and repairs for a significant chunk of revenue. EVs are mechanically simpler, and will require much less maintenance. So the traditional business model will be disrupted, again something incumbents don't want.
If version II or III of the Apple car offers autonomy, then we can imagine a city car which is designed to be a taxi, which means you only ever rent it. Again, this is an alien concept to existing car makers, who rely on dealer networks selling to end customers. So this would also favour new players not bound by older business practices.
In short, with Apple's battery expertise, huge cash reserves, supply chain experience and the relatively open market for EVs/autonomous vehicles, I'd say now is a great time for Apple to get into the market. They are also betting on the trend of lithium ion batteries getting better and cheaper every year[1]
[1] http://rameznaam.com/2015/10/14/how-cheap-can-energy-storage...
Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine this future in Europe: pretty much no one owns a personal car. When you want to go somewhere you order a car on your phone and within 10 minutes a driverless car arrives and takes you to your detination. Your music plays through the sound system. The back seat is comfy and you have plenty of room to work or surf the internet. The trip could be to the hardware store, or hundreds of miles to visit family.
I feel like OP understands this - the questions is that why do any of that when the younger generation is rapidly urbanizing, in which case "order a car on your phone, wait 10 minutes" seems silly compared to "walk out front door, onto train, be at destination even sooner". The self-driving utopia is primarily a suburban-centric dream, in many European cities (and a small handful of American ones) it's likely to be l…
Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#228I don't like the idea of Apple (or even Google for that matter) making cars. It seems like such a weird space for a company that makes consumer electronics parts to move into. It would be almost as weird as them starting to build houses. And I don't want to buy all my stuff from one company. Either way, I'm skeptical that any company is going to make huge, monopolistic profits from selling autonomous cars. It's somet…
I don't like the idea of Apple making cars for the same reason I'm uncomfortable with their phones: you won't own the car you're purchasing, in most meaningful senses of the word "own". (We have seen this problem with Tesla already.) To your second point, I'm not sure that autonomous tech will be easily commoditizable. Some companies will have much better tech than others and consumers will prefer them. Think about i…
Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine this future in Europe: pretty much no one owns a personal car. When you want to go somewhere you order a car on your phone and within 10 minutes a driverless car arrives and takes you to your detination. Your music plays through the sound system. The back seat is comfy and you have plenty of room to work or surf the internet. The trip could be to the hardware store, or hundreds of miles to visit family.
I feel like OP understands this - the questions is that why do any of that when the younger generation is rapidly urbanizing, in which case "order a car on your phone, wait 10 minutes" seems silly compared to "walk out front door, onto train, be at destination even sooner". The self-driving utopia is primarily a suburban-centric dream, in many European cities (and a small handful of American ones) it's likely to be l…
Re: Apple R&D Reveals a Pivot Is Coming
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like OP understands this - the questions is that why do any of that when the younger generation is rapidly urbanizing, in which case "order a car on your phone, wait 10 minutes" seems silly compared to "walk out front door, onto train, be at destination even sooner". The self-driving utopia is primarily a suburban-centric dream, in many European cities (and a small handful of American ones) it's likely to be l…
City subways systems take decades to build. Public transport is a shambles outside high density cities, and in many of those. Here in SF, it takes me an hour to get downtown by bus or subway, and 10-15 minutes by bus.
I think OP's point is (to paraphrase) "why all this when the population is moving into high density cities where this complex infrastructure already exists and presents a superior choice to cars, self-driving or otherwise".
Or from a more global perspective "why all this when the US is the only major market that is likely to continue having a mass suburban population in the long term, and the rest of the world has already urbanized and will continue to do so, already has highly robust mass transit infrastructure, is actively building even more of said infrastructure, and that is rapidly attracting even more population?"
There is a particularly common dream among American urbanists that suburban America will somehow rapidly urbanize - I don't think that's particularly true, but it's certainly true the rest of the world has urbanized, and will continue urbanizing rapidly. So the question is if self-driving personal cars (as opposed to say, commercial cargo vehicles) will largely be an American phenomenon, and if so, doesn't that present fairly modest total addressable market for a company the scale of Apple.