TTIP Leaks • Hacker News Board

Re: TTIP Leaks

#221

Post by wavefunction » Mon, May 02, 2016, 8:56 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #186

mvanvoorden wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're repeating propaganda. May be there's less violence, but the amount of suffering has skyrocketed over the years. A more than significant amount of people are dependent on tranquilizers and anti-depressants to make their life bearable, because for them it has become mundane and meaningless without. Statistiscs may tell a story of less violence, and people getting older and having more material possessions, but t…

Yeah, because the Opium Wars of 1800s never happened or something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Opium_War Your ignorance of history is outstanding and on display. Whatever the TTIP is, it is most certainly not a secret agreement to allow Opium into the Chinese economy to wreak the common people. We are better and more civilized people today than we were back then. Period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_o…

>>No country actually has the appetite for the amount of warrant-less killing that Imperialism creates

The US drone war has been killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people so I wonder if perhaps we do have an appetite for that sort of murder.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#222

Post by soperj » Mon, May 02, 2016, 8:59 PM UTC

tacos wrote: post #206

soperj wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have starved. Everyone else would have continued to rely on the steam tractors that were in use well into the 30s. I'm sure most aircraft carriers would be powered the same way nuclear subs are powered now.

Ah yes. Wake up a few extra hours before sunrise to load crisp, clean-burning coal into a furnace. Then fiddle with dials waiting for it to come up to pressure without exploding. Then drag a cast iron boiler and tons of water (!) on tiny wheels across muddy fields, generating 15 horsepower. Built to scale!

You're clearly a waste of time. They were already doing that. Why? Because the ICE's weren't up to snuff.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#223

Post by richmarr » Mon, May 02, 2016, 9:06 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #138

richmarr wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it. My understanding of TTIP and TPP are that they're the US's last ditch attempt to standardise international trade along US lines before China overtakes and starts to set the tone. On that basis they kinda make sense from a US perspective. From an EU perspective not so much. (edit: not saying the US ha…

And in theory, this is actually a really good idea, and something the Western nations should be doing. China's human rights and environment records are abysmal. It would be to the advantage of western nations to be more unified for their common benefit, and force China to catch up. However the TTIP/TPP are going the wrong way: they're trying to water down or eliminate environmental and consumer protections in favor o…

Agreed, and it's unnerving that lobby groups seem to have a degree of access that neither the public nor many of our elected representitives seem to have.

My knowledge of history in this area clearly isn't strong enough; I have no idea how we got here.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#224

Post by MichaelGG » Mon, May 02, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

simonb wrote: post #98

untog wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is "statistics might tell one story, but let me tell you, without citing sources or evidence, those statistics are wrong".

For one, suicide rates in the developed world are on the rise: http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

But this might be caused by all sorts of things. More people rejecting (or being more "moderate" in) religion, for instance. Or more people being able to get a more accurate view of the world. Or social acceptability changing.

Doesn't seem fair to look at overall statistics for peace and prosperity, then say "well that doesn't really count".

Re: TTIP Leaks

#225

Post by vasilipupkin » Mon, May 02, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

jethro_tell wrote: post #219

maxxxxx wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's the typical discussion at least in the US. "Look how much taxes the top 1% pay over those low income slackers."

I don't really know what you mean to say here, but generally, 'low income slackers' pay 18% -24% on their income and the rich pay significantly less then that as a percentage of income. Are you implying this is not the case?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-...

Re: TTIP Leaks

#226

Post by tommyman » Mon, May 02, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #102

tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

"So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on how to screw over Europe." Let me change this for you to something more accurate: So this is really lots of big multinational corporations negotiating with themselves on how to screw over working people throughout the world. When you start tuning this into "US companies screwing over Europe", you play right into their hands. As if there aren't…

Its both. Americans appear to have either give up years ago or agree with their representatives actions. Divided and conquered by squabbling over dem/rep smoke screens.

Europeans have fought harder to win and keep better social conditions, work conditions, health conditions, consumer protections, monopoly protection (great internets), environmental protection laws.

If you and a western european work same job for same company then you get a seriously raw deal compared to euros wrt benefits and conditions. I see ttip as a means for these companies to screw euros into US style conditions.

On euro side there are plenty of corrupt people (business, politicians, everything) that would love to screw either side to make some extra cash. The european commission are strongly behind it because all they see are dollar signs. Individual member states are going the other way from the look of it for one reason or another. Germans really won't budge on GM foods and US imports standards.

I expect europeans to fight the good fight and reject TTiP. I don't expect americans to do anything.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#227

Post by tommyman » Mon, May 02, 2016, 9:54 PM UTC

alanwatts wrote: post #104

tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

>So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on how to screw over Europe. What exactly do you mean by US companies ? Corporations like Apple and Google are not sovereign to any nation, they are super-sovereign, hence their ability to do what you are saying.

They are american companies based in the US, with ties to US government (ie. susceptible to US secret courts, gag orders yadda yadda).

They operate internationally. ymmv.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#228

Post by tommyman » Mon, May 02, 2016, 9:56 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #216

tommyman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was really trying to stay out of debating the US presidential race (again, not american not my business, do not even know all the people up for election). So I was trying to generally say 'Don't trust what politicians say, look at what they do'. That's it. I should have used somebody other than Trump as example, it was just a contrived example. side note - I saw cruise/cruse/cruze (ted) introduce his running mate r…

Since you're not American, where are you from? If it's Europe, this is pretty bad: >side note - I saw cruise/cruse/cruze (ted) introduce his running mate recently. "Cruise" is either a kind of ship or a reference to a nutty but highly successful actor. I don't know what "cruse" is. "Cruze" is a car by Chevrolet, an American company, and probably not a model sold in Europe. "Cruz", however, is Lyin' Ted's name, and it…

I'm from the internet. Obviously.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#229

Post by simonb » Mon, May 02, 2016, 10:22 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #224

simonb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, suicide rates in the developed world are on the rise: http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

But this might be caused by all sorts of things. More people rejecting (or being more "moderate" in) religion, for instance. Or more people being able to get a more accurate view of the world. Or social acceptability changing. Doesn't seem fair to look at overall statistics for peace and prosperity, then say "well that doesn't really count".

Of course, but all these are manifestations of the same ideological system (that also brought "peace and prosperity").

Re: TTIP Leaks

#230

Post by belorn » Mon, May 02, 2016, 10:25 PM UTC

legulere wrote: post #103

RobertoG wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let's go to the facts: 1. A treaty is negotiated between the two major markets in the world. 2. We know that when this kind of treaties are passed is almost impossible to go back. 3. We know that the most important input to those treaties come from corporations. 4. The conversations happen in secret. 5. The democratic representatives are not allowed to read the treaty except in a hurry and without legal help. 6.…

Some further facts: - the treaty tries to abolish market regulation differences between the two markets - costumer protection regulations between the US and the EU are incompatible - In the US often e.g. chemicals are allowed until proven hazardous, in the EU they are outlawed until proven harmless - the tribunals will operate outside the normal juridical systems of the US and the EU

This "allowed until proven hazardous" vs "outlawed until proven harmless" is such a misrepresenting of the disagreement.

Okey, lets put this concept into practice. I will sell fungus as antibiotics, and I will stop once its proven if it work. This would of course not work, and we follow a "outlawed until proven harmless" when it comes to medicine. In the context of medicine, that is a good rule to have and both US and EU agree on this.

So, its not about "proven to be safe" vs "proven to be unsafe", but rather specific regulations in specific contexts where EU and US disagree which one is best. In medicine, both agree. With additive in food and pesticide residue laying around in crops, they disagree.

There could have been a public debate, but this treaty is not that. It even go as far as forbid laws that grants the consumer a legal right to know what substances they ingest.