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We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

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Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#221

Post by ArkyBeagle »

ankimal wrote: post #57
struppi wrote: post #33

Also: Give the "not-the-best" people a chance to develop. The CEO of one of my past clients, a consulting company, always said: "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer". And he put his money where his mouth was: He hired people with no programming experience (even with no university education) and personally trained them for several months . Also, senior people in the company were encouraged to also help the…

Great attitude and a hunger to learn >> Super smart but a pain to work with, in the long run.

I always wonder if they actually are a pain to work with.

I've worked from outside the hull speed of several teams and gotten into places where being diplomatic about the sheer propensity to failure was a lot of what I ended up doing. And, frankly, I've just dropped the mic and walked off more than once, once I'd established that the team ultimately just didn't want to perform or had some horrifying external constraint that made the death march inevitable.

Say it with me: "I am powerless over the fact that I suck." At least you can work on the self loathing and make progress.

But seriously - get your ego out of it and life gets better. Let your ego free only when you are alone. You can't fix 'em all.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#223

Post by gohrt »

andrewstuart wrote: post #210
struppi wrote: post #33

Also: Give the "not-the-best" people a chance to develop. The CEO of one of my past clients, a consulting company, always said: "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer". And he put his money where his mouth was: He hired people with no programming experience (even with no university education) and personally trained them for several months . Also, senior people in the company were encouraged to also help the…

"You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" Flat out dead wrong. If you hire "anyone" and try to teach them to be a programmer then you will probably fire them. This is the sort of attitude that leads companies to outsource their development overseas: "Our programmers are people hitting keys. We'll get overseas people to hit keys and overseas people hit keys for less money.", cause, you know, anyone can do it.…

Indeed, there's simply no way that people who grew up in backwater regions like China, or India, could be competent at building software.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#224

Post by kodablah »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #76

In the spirit of this advice, if you are serious about really finding the best people, you should offer very comprehensive severance packages as part of every offer -- on the order of 6-10 months of salary, possibly even "grossed up" so that it results in at least 6 months of salary after taxes. Instead of spending money on needlessly complicated hiring processes, with back and forth phone calls, panel Skype intervie…

> If they are not qualified for the job or they are not a cultural fit later, just fire them.

This is the entire problem with the inability to hire the "best"; It's dangerous to try and fail with lawsuits, unemployment, etc. I personally prefer to work for companies that don't hold on to poor employees and have quit companies that do the opposite. If you want to "hire the best" you have to "fire the worst". I accept the risk that comes with this of course (and many others may not).

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#225

Post by cableshaft »

RogerL wrote: post #51
draw_down wrote: post #13

My team does take-home project, a small problem to solve that should take at most a couple hours. It's the same problem for every candidate so we're judging them on common work. It's not real work, it's made up. In interviewing discussions in places like HN, there is enough pushback against this idea, which is a bit surprising to me. I thought a few hours work was reasonable when I was interviewing. But my point is t…

It depends. I have so many job offer emails that I cannot reasonably answer them all. They all want to take over your life. Talk to me, then I'll schedule interviews for you at inconvenient times. What, you didn't look this random company up and memorize facts so you'll look eager? Tsk, tsk. Read these books on interviewing. Make a github account. Practice! Why don't you practice you miserable turd?! I'm just asking…

Your first paragraph really nails the current recruiter experience and why it's so aggravating and why I don't bother 99.5% of the time to respond anymore (assuming I'm working). The rest of your post is also gold, and I wish I could inject it into the brains of just about every person who's interviewed me in the past ten years.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#226

Post by andrewstuart »

gohrt wrote: post #223
andrewstuart wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" Flat out dead wrong. If you hire "anyone" and try to teach them to be a programmer then you will probably fire them. This is the sort of attitude that leads companies to outsource their development overseas: "Our programmers are people hitting keys. We'll get overseas people to hit keys and overseas people hit keys for less money.", cause, you know, anyone can do it.…

Indeed, there's simply no way that people who grew up in backwater regions like China, or India, could be competent at building software.

People who want to feel insulted always find ways to feel insulted.

If you choose to read my comment that way then you are choosing to hear the message that you want to hear, which is a reflection of you and your personal issues.

My comment in no way suggested that overseas developers are incompetent - in fact whether or not a developer is competent has little to do with where they live - although economic opportunity is part of the equation. Great programmers create themselves by hard work and that has nothing to do with location.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#227

Post by draw_down »

ern wrote: post #36
draw_down wrote: post #13

My team does take-home project, a small problem to solve that should take at most a couple hours. It's the same problem for every candidate so we're judging them on common work. It's not real work, it's made up. In interviewing discussions in places like HN, there is enough pushback against this idea, which is a bit surprising to me. I thought a few hours work was reasonable when I was interviewing. But my point is t…

You allude to a bigger problem: anyone outside the industry who looks at the hiring process for developers would be put off. I know anecdotally that the industry is struggling to get students interested in software development as a career, and good developers are loathe to leave their jobs. I don't blame either group. Would I want my kids to spend their careers being put through the wringer of multiple high-stakes in…

I don't disagree that we have our problems, but to me most industries seem worse to work in than ours. Not that we should stick up for ourselves but everything is terrible everywhere. Or you just don't get paid very much.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#228

Post by andrewflnr »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #213
OpenDrapery wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to my previous comment, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the "consulting" gig. It seems to rule here. You know the routine. Consulting shop places an individual at a client site and charges the client $100 an hour, and then turns around and gives the consultant less than half of it. I can see the argument of the consulting firm viewing their people both as profit centers and cost centers. Why are the…

My last consulting firm accounted their consultant salaries as a cost center, despite our hours worked being directly billed to the client. I left about two weeks after finding out.

Does that affect you financially, or did you just think it showed the wrong perspective?

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#229

Post by ArkyBeagle »

staticelf wrote: post #26

I really like this post, that most companies require workers to be at a specific location is very strange considering our type of work. I don't want to work in Sillicon Valley, even if the work is interesting. I live in Scandinavia and for me scandinavian countries are the best to live in the world.

I don't know first hand, but I suspect that I'd rather be shot at dawn than live in a Scandinavian country. I tried Canada for a while ( temporary posting due to acquisition) and it just didn't work.

You're used to that, and in a "measurable" way, it's semi-objectively true but it's not for everybody. I think it mainly was that I missed the sheer insanity of America where it is insane. It's something akin to codependency.

And given all that, I'd rather live in a Scandinavian country than SiVa.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#230

Post by bad_user »

andrewstuart wrote: post #210
struppi wrote: post #33

Also: Give the "not-the-best" people a chance to develop. The CEO of one of my past clients, a consulting company, always said: "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer". And he put his money where his mouth was: He hired people with no programming experience (even with no university education) and personally trained them for several months . Also, senior people in the company were encouraged to also help the…

"You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" Flat out dead wrong. If you hire "anyone" and try to teach them to be a programmer then you will probably fire them. This is the sort of attitude that leads companies to outsource their development overseas: "Our programmers are people hitting keys. We'll get overseas people to hit keys and overseas people hit keys for less money.", cause, you know, anyone can do it.…

You know what the irony is? Us programmers thinking that "everyone can be a great programmer" is our preponderant liberal and very idealistic views showing.

And we keep going around and shout that and other people believe it. And in turn we are being taken advantage of with long hours, unfair compensation for our contributions and the worse of it all? Ageism in our industry is rampant.

I look at physicians, surgeons, accountants, lawyers and others with envy, because in those professions, the older you get, the more esteemed and valuable you are. We peak at 30.

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