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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#221

Post by ams6110 »

tptacek wrote: post #202
rewqfdsa wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the connection between beer and nerd culture --- or masculine culture, actually, since plenty of women I know love beer.

I wasn't trying to be gender-specific with my example, just showing how something you can do as a manager to build culture can exclude and alienate people. (Though: I do think beer drinking trends masculine.)

It's really hard to win at this. Whatever you do as a culture or team building exercise is going to either offend or just be uncomfortable to some subset of employees, unless it's so bland as to be boring for everyone.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#222

Post by paulddraper »

Rusky wrote: post #211
rewqfdsa wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

Innate differences between genders may play a part, but the idea that "women tend to be less interested" is not the only possible innate difference. What's to say the innate difference in play here isn't "men tend to be more hostile to women joining their space"?

That's different. Yours is a bias that necessarily influences other people.

But you are right; other innate biases are possible. Men could be better at logical/mathematical reasoning, which is necessary for technical skills. A difference in interest though is the most popular proposal.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#223

Post by ap22213 »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #187
omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

> Why is this a problem First-order logic: if (A AND ~B -> ~C) AND C, then (~A OR B). The persistence of the gender gap in technology despite decades of effort to "fix" it is an annoying refutation of the blank-slate theory of human nature on which the entire worldview of many people, particularly gender activists, rests. In other words, if it's simultaneously true that tech is gender-imbalanced and that there is no…

I got somewhat distracted by your use of words (e.g. pundit class) which seem to be meant to be purely inflammatory (not sure if you meant to be - but it is).

But, let's say I follow your logic on its own. Should I just believe that there's no systematic discrimination? How could I be confident that there's not any?

And, as a parent of a bright and mathematically-inclined daughter, should I discourage her from a field in technology because she likely has some otherwise hidden trait that will make her less useful or successful? How do I even know what that trait is? Is there a test for it?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#224

Post by paulddraper »

memu wrote: post #200
rewqfdsa wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

Premise 1: There are some innate differences that obtain between people of different sexes. Conclusion: The gender disparity in computer science is the result of innate differences between the sexes. Seems legit...

Conclusion: The gender disparity in computer science could be the result of innate differences between the sexes.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#225

Post by tptacek »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #215
tptacek wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an argument that gets you a team of people who all like the same video games and all pick which beer to drink by maximizing IBUs. There's a point at which can safely say that this kind of studiously groomed, exclusionary "cohesion" is doing more harm than good. I mean, there's obviously that point: if you refused to hire someone because they were a woman, you'd get sued; if you refused to hire someone because…

Look at the other extreme: the idea that I might be discouraged (or disallowed) from bonding with my coworkers over shared interests sounds dystopian. You might argue that workplaces shouldn't endorse one particular subculture over another: that's fine. But unless you take stern measures to ban fraternization, you're going to get coworkers forming friendships based on shared interests, and we're lying to ourselves if…

I don't see anyone arguing that people who like Star Wars shouldn't be allowed to wear Star Wars shirts.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#226

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

Mz wrote: post #37
gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing that makes you want to do it? I am a woman with a Certificate in GIS. I know some HTML and CSS. I run some blogs. I joined an email list -- a parenting/homeschooling list -- when my now 28 year old son was 11. It led to me becoming a moderator of an email list for a time. My advice was seemingly popular on that lis…

> Having girly motivations does not mean writing code is of no interest to you. You can be interested in people or whatever and see code as a way to accomplish your goals.

I've noticed that in some tech circles, social and emotional motivations (and especially ones with negative valence like anger and disappointment) are seen as sort of unreal and invalid. I understand that people often want to focus on choosing the product/technology/protocol/whatever that's objectively the best, but I think there are cases where it's warped the culture such that people get into cliques and develop (sometimes intense) social motivations based on perfectly valid factors like trust and respect, but pretend that those motivations are entirely based on dispassionate technical analysis.

I guess I'm not sure what my point is. Maybe it's that social "drama" is inevitable, but tech communities make it toxic because of a misguided belief that it's irrelevant, and this dynamic causes splash damage for women who are more heavily socialized to value personal relationships. Maybe it's just a brain fart, but I think it would explain a lot.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#227

Post by PostOnce »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #181
omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

How is it possible that you don't see the problem in this line of reasoning? Do you really not? Edit: honestly, I'm curious how this mindset comes about. How is it possible to ignore the importance of people being given the opportunity to work wherever they are capable? How is it possible to ignore the impact of being denied access to an incredibly lucrative and glamorous industry? How is it possible to ignore the ma…

I think the idea is that women CAN get into compsci if they want to or are interested, it's just that on average, they appear not to be?

It sort of feels like saying there aren't enough people named Gavin in compsci. Why do we need people named Gavin? If Gavin wants to do compsci, that's cool, but if not, then he can go do whatever makes him happy?

The point is, we don't need _person type X_ simply for the sake of an equal number of all types of people. Unequal numbers/types of people don't necessarily mean they're being kept out, that doesn't follow.

There aren't enough male hairdressers? There aren't enough female linesmen? There aren't enough Democrats named Duane?

Whether or not this is true I don't know, I just consider this the popular sentiment.

I could be an elementary school teacher as a male, I'm just not inclined to. I don't feel kept out.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#228

Post by howeyc »

paulddraper wrote: post #219
pkinsky wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of college students are female. Most prisoners are male. Most homeless people are male. If we take it as a given that any group being under- or overrepresented in some category is a violation of the social contract, maybe we should start by fixing these glaring injustices.

But those are different. Those favor females.

You're also not supposed to point out such advantages. You'll be ostracized and placed into "male rights" sub group which has very negative connotations in general society.

Tread lightly.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#229

Post by solofounder2 »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #212
j2kun wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. Ted is the new kid at school, and he wants to make friends. At recess he approaches a group of smiling, laughing boys to introduce himself. But as he nears the group they get quiet. Ted says hi and his name, and mentions he's new and wants to know if they play "tag" here. The boys reply, "we don't play tag, we p…

If I understand your parable correctly, you're suggesting that men deliberately mock and reject women trying to enter the field. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. I have never, not once, witnessed the behavior you describe. I've seen nothing but welcoming behavior toward everyone who wants to learn software. Even among proponents of the systemic discrimination theory, the consensus these days…

I suspect a more realistic scenario is that it's the other girls who do the mocking and rejecting as a reaction to one person's interest in computer science.. that's the thing.

the question then becomes.. why does the little girl care what the other little girls think ? Why isn't she more than happy hanging out with the more open and accepting group of computer cherishing boys ?

I assume it has to do with social norms, early childhood developmental experiences, not wanting to break certain social guidelines passed down through family values, the anticipation of "dating"..

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#230

Post by rewqfdsa »

ap22213 wrote: post #223
rewqfdsa wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is this a problem First-order logic: if (A AND ~B -> ~C) AND C, then (~A OR B). The persistence of the gender gap in technology despite decades of effort to "fix" it is an annoying refutation of the blank-slate theory of human nature on which the entire worldview of many people, particularly gender activists, rests. In other words, if it's simultaneously true that tech is gender-imbalanced and that there is no…

I got somewhat distracted by your use of words (e.g. pundit class) which seem to be meant to be purely inflammatory (not sure if you meant to be - but it is). But, let's say I follow your logic on its own. Should I just believe that there's no systematic discrimination? How could I be confident that there's not any? And, as a parent of a bright and mathematically-inclined daughter, should I discourage her from a fiel…

You're right that "pundit class" is too inflammatory. I've edited my comment.

> Should I believe that there's no systematic discrimination? How would I be confident that there's not any?

Nobody can prove the absence of systemic discrimination. You also can't prove the absence of lizard people. The burden of proof rests on those making the positive claim. Look at how the technology industry tries very hard to attract women. Look at the outreach programs, the hackathons, and the scholarships from dozens of foundations and open source projects. Look at the mentorship programs available for women. That's some evidence _against_ systemic bias.

Now look at evidence _for_ systemic bias _other_ than the gender disparity itself. We're left with, what, rugs about meritocracy and a few off-color comments about dongles in a private conversation between two friends at a conference?

I just don't think the non-gender-disparity evidence is strong enough to support a claim of bias.

> should I discourage her from a field in technology because she likely has some otherwise hidden trait that will make her less useful or successful?

You should introduce her to many fields and let her decide which one interests her most.

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