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I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

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Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#211

Post by zzalpha »

sliverstorm wrote: post #204
zzalpha wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer the question. The claim was "countries that are based on a unique language, ethnicity and culture, [immigration] is damaging." Again, I ask the question: damaging in what sense?

If you accept that the language, ethnicity, and culture are valuable parts of that country- Such a country can assimilate some number of immigrants each year while remaining mostly unchanged. The immigrants learn the language, the culture, and marry into native families. But as you increase the number of immigrants, the country can no longer assimilate them. They don't all learn the language, they don't know the cult…

So?

Things change. That's called life. To assume all nations and all cultures remain static over time is absurd. Hell, the nations as they are defined today are a very recent phenomenon. Some have only existed for a few decades!

The host country will become a new, different, more diverse country. That doesn't mean the culture of the host country is completely destroyed. Altered, yes. Destroyed? Almost certainly not.

And the detrimental effects can be mitigated if the host country works to actively integrate (note, integrate, not necessarily assimilate) immigrant populations, rather than isolating them through xenophobic policy and politics. It's the very fear of change that exacerbates the challenges of immigration.

As an aside, your characterization of immigrants as from "Elbonia" coming to make a "little Elbonia" is precisely the kind of xenophobic tendency I'm talking about. I'm sure folks said the same thing when Little Italy or China Town showed up in New York City, and yet today those areas are considered cultural jewels, contributions to society rather than infections that must be dealt with, components that have been integrated into a modern American identity.

Maybe don't assume immigrants are foreign invaders and they'll be more likely to integrate rather than isolate...

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#212

Post by proveanegative »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #27
proveanegative wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it didn't what would the meaning of citizenship be?

I suspect the post you replied to was sarcasm.

Indeed. Sarcasm is still as hard as ever to detect in the web.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#213

Post by mahouse »

greggman wrote: post #154
murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

I've spent about 8 years in Japan. I love parts of the culture (the good parts, not the bad parts). Things like the service ethic, politeness, safety, and the basic idea of "do whatever you want in your private life but don't put out anyone else while doing it." My guess is that a massive influx of foreigners would likely destroy that culture. Is there any way to open borders and still preserve a place's culture, at…

No. Re: Sweden.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#214

Post by laurentoget »

pierotofy wrote: post #22
fsloth wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sometimes you need to try harder." You mean search for an employer whom would sponsor citizenship? The article explained it is quite expensive - do employer sponsored citizenships happen?

Nobody sponsors citizenship. They can sponsor you for a green card (permanent residency). It costs thousands of dollars (I have been told in the range of $12,000, without considering attorney's fees). But it locks you in with the employer for several years, and when you consider the amount of money that you can generate for a company, combined with the fact that you will probably get an average or below average salar…

Recruiters routinely charge 30% of salary. For an employee who is a proven fit in a company, immigration fees are not unreasonable.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#215

Post by minot »

laurentoget wrote: post #196
scott_s wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that some employers treat green card sponsorship similar to a bonus: if you leave before z years after getting the green card, you owe them $x0,000.

this sounds like indentured servitude, and i suspect there are laws against this.

They could just pay you less and say that you will get so much in bonus after working there for z years.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#216

Post by kristjansson »

bruceb wrote: post #140
lukeschlather wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not really talking about opening the borders to STEM employees. We're talking about keeping highly educated people, educated at US universities, in the country. There is some exploitation that happens, but by and large people are going to pay market rate +-15%, minus administrative costs. Administrative costs for hiring immigrants are extremely high, so it makes sense that their wages might be a bit less. (The…

How is it foreign aid for students to come here pay higher tuition to some schools who would be much worse without them, spend money in the US and then go home? Most students don't come here and save a bunch of money. They are taking money from their home country and spending it in the US. It is like anti-foreign aid.

Not the parent, but:

From the perspective of the students, yes, there is a financial transfer to the U.S. However, from national perspective, there is an economic transfer to the other nation. The U.S. university system represents the product of decades (centuries in some cases) of public and private investment. Foreign students and the societies they return to get the benefit of that investment - a better educated than could be trained locally - without having made it themselves. Hence, an economic transfer from the US to the other nation.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#217

Post by murbard2 »

pc86 wrote: post #187
anthony_d wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'cheaper' is a comparison. 'hard' is not. I don't think anyone wants salaries to go into free-fall but that's not a necessary result of easing immigration.

Isn't it? By definition wouldn't an increase in supply of talent for a given job decrease market wage for that talent unless it was already in a shortage (which we never really know until it's over)?

It would also decrease prices and thus raise living standards. Customers would then turn their attention to better goods and services, increasing the demand for labor. You're committing the lump of labor fallacy.

Think about it this way, if two countries were to merge, would everyone be worse off because of the increased competition on the job market? No, people would be better off due to the increased amount of trade.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#218

Post by bnegreve »

pkaye wrote: post #41

Is it much easier in the EU? For example, can I go to Switzerland or France and easily get permanent residency?

You don't need to do anything inside the Schengen area in order to be allowed to "reside permanently". For the citizenship, it's a different issue I guess.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#219

Post by namenotrequired »

ElComradio wrote: post #7
vonklaus wrote: post #4

A friend of mine works in shipping at a reputable and profitable firm. His roommate, a Greek national also engaged with the firm, was "deported". Twice. He wasn't literally thrown out of the country but it amounted to as much, having similar visa issues. His employer, unlike the author, sponsored him. However, two separate lawyers were unable to secure him a place in the country. One made a costly mistake and was fir…

Has it actually been shown that if we were to throw open the borders to STEM employees that it would result in a net economic gain? Because as far as I can tell, movements to get droves of women and immigrants into software is entirely driven by companies' desire for cheaper labor.

There's no way to show that but to do it. I welcome such an experiment.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#220

Post by Jugurtha »

pc86 wrote: post #187
anthony_d wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'cheaper' is a comparison. 'hard' is not. I don't think anyone wants salaries to go into free-fall but that's not a necessary result of easing immigration.

Isn't it? By definition wouldn't an increase in supply of talent for a given job decrease market wage for that talent unless it was already in a shortage (which we never really know until it's over)?

Sound logic, but it is not an automatically enforced one.

Take waste collectors, for example:

Very few people want to do it, very few people actually do it. And it is necessary. By our sound logic, their salaries should be soaring, but they're not.

On the other hand, take lawyers in the U.S. A huge number of people want to do it. A huge number of people ends up doing it (I think the number of lawyers tripled in 30 years, for a 40% increase in population), and compared to waste collection, it is not that necessary a profession. But the salaries don't follow. They have probably dropped compared to what a lawyer used to make in the 60's (I'm not sure), but those who end up doing it still make good money.

So it doesn't seem to be a law of nature that is enforced automatically.

What do you think?

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