Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work • Hacker News Board

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#211

Post by nidieunimaitre » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:44 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #149

RegW wrote: post #66

There was an interesting talk on Radio 4's Fourthought recently by an ex-cop. "Peter Bleksley, a former undercover policeman fighting drugs crime and an ex-drug addict, argues that the only answer in the so-called "war on drugs" is to legalise and license them." However, he was against simply putting the supply into the hands of pharmaceutical companies instead of criminals. He was calling for an affordable, state co…

He's probably right. I'm very pro-legalisation myself. I also think it would be amazing if we could point our pharmaceutical research facilities at recreational drugs and say "Hey! Go find drugs people like that are less addictive and less harmful!". But given the nature of markets we'd end up optimising for the most addictive substance, because you want repeat customers, right? And the last thing I want to see is as…

Makes me wonder if the US (or Uruguay?) will start seeing TV commercials or magazine ads for marijuana brands soon.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#212

Post by magoghm » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

PaulAJ wrote: post #156

simonh wrote: post #26

I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war against drugs (actualy, a drug) - prohibition. Exactly the same scenario played out then as is, hopefully, coming to it's inevitable conclusion now in the 'western hemisphere'. If the same thing is starting up again in the East, it's going to be a bloody and chaotic few decades to come before the same lesson gets learned the third time over. Fortunately we do have a la…

I know its a side point, but I gather that smokers actually cost the UK NHS less than non-smokers, because smokers tend to die younger and faster than non-smokers. The people who cost the NHS a lot are the healthy, clean living people who survive into their 80s and 90s needing more and more healthcare as they go.

Interesting point. I hadn't looked at it that way. Do you know about any hard data that shows this clearly?

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#213

Post by Dove » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

juliangregorian wrote: post #102

peteretep wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal alcohol dosage doesn't lead to massive loss of control

What's a "normal alcohol dosage"? When I was younger I used to blackout drink every weekend, and most of my friends did too. Very normal, definitely "massive loss of control".

I'd consider "normal alcohol use" to the the use of it that is so broadly considered socially acceptable that even people who need to keep a clean public image don't have trouble doing it publicly.

You know, wine with dinner. A bottle of beer during a football game. A cocktail at a party.

There is a well-understood zone, both in terms of dosage and surrounding activity, within which alcohol use causes zero problems. Certainly nowhere close to loss of control. There are social rules and expectations reinforcing the boundaries of that zone. Lots of people stay within it and have . . . zero problems.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#214

Post by tmoullet » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:49 PM UTC

PaulAJ wrote: post #156

simonh wrote: post #26

I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war against drugs (actualy, a drug) - prohibition. Exactly the same scenario played out then as is, hopefully, coming to it's inevitable conclusion now in the 'western hemisphere'. If the same thing is starting up again in the East, it's going to be a bloody and chaotic few decades to come before the same lesson gets learned the third time over. Fortunately we do have a la…

I know its a side point, but I gather that smokers actually cost the UK NHS less than non-smokers, because smokers tend to die younger and faster than non-smokers. The people who cost the NHS a lot are the healthy, clean living people who survive into their 80s and 90s needing more and more healthcare as they go.

Do you know of any studies/articles that explore this idea? In the UK does any of taxes collected on the sale/manufacturing of cigarettes go back to funding the NHS?

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#215

Post by pnut » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:50 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #194

notsony wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Why can't more people see it the way you have described? True marriage equality does not discriminate. As it stands, the campaign for "marriage equality" is deceptive and has only been concerned with marriage between homosexuals - other minority groups be damned!

> the campaign for "marriage equality" is deceptive and has only been concerned with marriage between homosexuals No, its not. Marriage where one or both partners are homosexuals is legally permitted (and has often occurred) without marriage equality.

According to Chief Justice John Roberts, not exactly a liberal, marriage availability to homosexuals per the method you are describing amounts to sexual discrimination.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/30/us/gender-bias-could-tip-c...

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#216

Post by tmoullet » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:52 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #204

tokenadult wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why the campaigns against alcohol have been so unsuccessful. Alcohol is very easy to manufacture in secret.

And, by the way, can easily yield the poisonous methanol variation accidentally. This wasn't uncommon during prohibition, and many people were harmed, blinded, or killed, by drinking it. This is a very close parallel to what we see in the (failed) War on (some) Drugs, where many people are harmed by overdoses because the products wind up tainted, or aren't produced to any uniform potency.

I thought the people who were killed by methanol poisoning was a deliberate side effect of the ATF adding it into liquor/beer supply in order to make consumers second guess their decision to drink.

EDIT: see denatured alcohol at any hardware store.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#217

Post by DanBC » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:53 PM UTC

magoghm wrote: post #212

PaulAJ wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know its a side point, but I gather that smokers actually cost the UK NHS less than non-smokers, because smokers tend to die younger and faster than non-smokers. The people who cost the NHS a lot are the healthy, clean living people who survive into their 80s and 90s needing more and more healthcare as they go.

Interesting point. I hadn't looked at it that way. Do you know about any hard data that shows this clearly?

This is how much money is earnt through tax and excise: http://www.the-tma.org.uk/tma-publications-research/facts-fi... (about £10bn in 2005)

This is how much smoking costs, maybe: £5bn

But it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#218

Post by robotresearcher » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #26

I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war against drugs (actualy, a drug) - prohibition. Exactly the same scenario played out then as is, hopefully, coming to it's inevitable conclusion now in the 'western hemisphere'. If the same thing is starting up again in the East, it's going to be a bloody and chaotic few decades to come before the same lesson gets learned the third time over. Fortunately we do have a la…

> "tobacco abuse"

Why use the word 'abuse' when referring to the designed use?

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#219

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 01, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

PaulAJ wrote: post #156

simonh wrote: post #26

I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war against drugs (actualy, a drug) - prohibition. Exactly the same scenario played out then as is, hopefully, coming to it's inevitable conclusion now in the 'western hemisphere'. If the same thing is starting up again in the East, it's going to be a bloody and chaotic few decades to come before the same lesson gets learned the third time over. Fortunately we do have a la…

I know its a side point, but I gather that smokers actually cost the UK NHS less than non-smokers, because smokers tend to die younger and faster than non-smokers. The people who cost the NHS a lot are the healthy, clean living people who survive into their 80s and 90s needing more and more healthcare as they go.

[deleted]

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#220

Post by iak8god » Fri, May 01, 2015, 5:00 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #204

tokenadult wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why the campaigns against alcohol have been so unsuccessful. Alcohol is very easy to manufacture in secret.

And, by the way, can easily yield the poisonous methanol variation accidentally. This wasn't uncommon during prohibition, and many people were harmed, blinded, or killed, by drinking it. This is a very close parallel to what we see in the (failed) War on (some) Drugs, where many people are harmed by overdoses because the products wind up tainted, or aren't produced to any uniform potency.

This is only a concern with distilled spirits.