American students head to Germany for free college • Hacker News Board

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#211

Post by tsotha » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 8:47 PM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #180

Happydayz wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US educators are well aware of the German model. Like you said, we've opted not to go with serious tracking for students. The minimal tracking we already do is controversial as is. It would be a huge ruckus for us to do what the Germans do and start segregating students by ability soon after elementary school. We just value different things differently, and in this particular case we accept less optimal social outcom…

Thought experiment: I wonder if one reason the US doesn't do formalized tracking of this sort is that it would be distasteful to formalize the inequalities in our system, but yet we don't have the stomach to actually provide equal opportunities. We have de facto tracking by parental income and social capital. Look at the other thread about high school kids taking AP computer science: AP CS is basically a class that i…

The US doesn't track for four reasons.

* The US is obsessed with race, and tracking makes it too obvious black kids aren't doing as well as white kids.

* Parents all believe their own child is above average regardless of the mathematical implications, and they get very upset if you hint the possibility little Johnny might not be the most intelligent child in his class. Clearly he just doesn't do well on tests.

* Children tend to live up or down to expectations. Obviously you can't make a dumb kid smart by expecting him to be smart, but you can influence the amount of effort he puts into school.

* People have looked at income statistics and decided if we send every child to college they can all be doctors and lawyers, and the toilets will magically clean themselves.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#212

Post by ownagefool » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #121

ownagefool wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll actually find it's pretty complicated to measure earnings in Europe. In London you could happily be earning $200,000 - $300,000 with IT skills, avoid tax, keep 90% of that, and have the state benefits. Simply stated, because of the high levels of tax and rife avoidance, it's probably quite difficult to quantify earnings in London, for example.

> In London you could happily be earning $200,000 - $300,000 with IT skills, avoid tax, keep 90% of that, and have the state benefits. How? Which particular state benefits are you talking about? (And it seems like you're talking about evasion - which is illegal, rather than avoidance which is a mix of normal tax planning (a contractor registering for VAT and claiming some of that back) and loophole-manipulation).

Contract for GOV.UK or finance, high end will see you those rates with 2 weeks holiday + the 8 bank holidays. Look for the word devops for example.

Health care is the obvious one. University has kinda jumped the shark though.

Trust schemes or defer forever, depending on your attitude to risk. I'm not saying said schemes should be used, just that it's popular and skews what people really earn.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#213

Post by tsotha » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

drvd wrote: post #18

tsotha wrote: post #2

How could this possibly make sense to German taxpayers?

Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if b…

Well, okay, you've made the standard argument for a social democracy. It's sort of irrelevant to the question of whether or not you should provide services to citizens of other countries.

If your argument is Germans pay their taxes and don't care how the money gets spent I have to say I'm a bit skeptical.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#214

Post by tsotha » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

stingraycharles wrote: post #23

drvd wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if b…

Also, you could argue that it is a good investment to have high educated foreigners receive their education in your country: it's like extending your business network on a nation-wide level.

Yes, it is like that if you only charge for your model of business expansion is to charge for your product in your own town and give it away for free everywhere else.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#215

Post by tsotha » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #73

drvd wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if b…

If Germany is like other European countries, it also helps that your taxes are "automatically paid" to the government, usually by having the employer take them out of your salary and paying them. It's not like in US where Americans feel every dollar going to the government when they do their taxes. Since they are paid automatically, the income taxes aren't even on people's minds, usually. However, if Europeans had to…

In the US they take money out of your paycheck too. The only difference is once a year we "settle up" for the previous calendar year. You pay more if you're short and get some back if you overpaid.

There must be a similar process in Germany for people who aren't 9-5 types.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#216

Post by tsotha » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 10:04 PM UTC

doyoulikeworms wrote: post #29

aikah wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is how could that expensive US education could possibly make sense for americans? In Europe,in most countries, education is virtually free, just look at the cost of law school or med school in France or Belgium for instance. It's what $500 dollars a year at most? Of course there are plenty of private schools in Europe, but even these are usually half the cost of American ones. I graduated in computer sci…

Public university used to be cheap. In the 1960's, tuition & fees at a UC school was less than $2000 (2015 dollars) per year. In the 1950's, it was less than $750 per year.[1][2] Today, tuition & fees at a UC will cost you $15,000 per year. In order to completely pay for tuition and fees, the state of California would have to increase revenue $3 billion per year. Or increase tax revenues by just 3%.[1][3] I, as a cit…

>I, as a citizen, feel like our government's priorities have been absolutely abysmal since the 1980's.

Which government? What does the federal government have to do with California's subsidy of the UC system?

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#217

Post by tsotha » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 10:14 PM UTC

jacalata wrote: post #6

tsotha wrote: post #2

How could this possibly make sense to German taxpayers?

From the article: >Germany wants these international students here, even though their taxpayers foot the bill. >“Germany is not a country that's growing,” Malone says. “Its population is not growing. They need people, they need immigrants. They want to be a migration country.” >Think about it this way: it’s a global game of collecting talent. All of these students are the trading cards, and the collectors are countri…

If you're willing to shell out tens of thousands of euros to attract "talent", why not just give already educated people money to become Germans?

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#218

Post by tsotha » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 10:19 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #26

tsotha wrote: post #2

How could this possibly make sense to German taxpayers?

Well consider the alternative: only rich people could get a higher education otherwise. IIRC this is what happens in the US too (parents having to save for their kids' college education, assuming they actually have money left after paying the bills), which leads to reduced mobility (the poor stay poor)

>Well consider the alternative: only rich people could get a higher education otherwise.

No, that's not the alternative at all. The alternative would be to have people from other countries pay their own way and provide free education to your own citizens.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#219

Post by wyclif » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 10:43 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #127

bpires wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not about it being completely free. The whole point is how 235€ or even 1000€ per semester is nothing compared to tens of thousands americans pay in tuiton. Top universities in the US like MIT and Stanford charge over $40000 per year. With half of that you could comfortably live as a student in Germany for a year with all expenses paid. I live as a student in Germany on 650€/mo. That's less than $10000 a year.

The professors always told us, that the US is much more expensive with their education, but the people know this and have many options to save this money till the children are old enough to study, so it shouldn't be so bad...

Is that supposed to make Americans feel better about going into crushing educational debt? Articles like this make me think I should be packing up and heading to Germany ;-)

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#220

Post by galfarragem » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 10:57 PM UTC

borgia wrote: post #181

galfarragem wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was much better prepared than Americans or British. But Americans have much better job opportunities that make them better than Europeans after working some time in any field. Great comment. Anyway I will never leave Europe for US/Canada/Australia[1]. I've visited some family in the latter and I feel that the advantages of these countries are not enough to make me live there. Exchanging peace of mind and a huge dec…

>Great comment. Anyway I will never leave Europe for US/Canada/Australia[1]. I've visited some family in the latter and I feel that the advantages of these countries are not enough to make me live there. Exchanging peace of mind and a huge decrease of life quality for some extra probabilities of being rich and extra consumption doen't worth IMO. I'm a European currently living in Canada, who has also traveled the US…

> What it is lacking though is cultural substance and identity. It's pretty bland. Nothing has any real character. In that way it can feel a bit like a major US city and will be the main reason I move back to Europe in the coming years.

You nailed it. 'Lack of detail', it seems silly but that's what I really miss in the 'new world'.