Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#211

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 4:49 PM UTC

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #199

raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

I don't see the connection here. In the US you have millionaires came out of "nothing" (of course, from nice universities, nice contacts, etc), people jumping at opportunities, while in Europe this would take 2 meetings, 3 viability studies and 4 months. That is a really narrow view and a myth that is just not applicable to the majority of people. Besides extreme things like Facebook, most people of the US are stick…

You didn't read anything from the '(' on where I mean exactly what you explained.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#212

Post by jcampbell1 » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 4:52 PM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #197

k-mcgrady wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "consider it a risky option" In the UK system there is no risk. You only have to pay back the loan (form the government) when you are earning over a certain amount per year. It is taken directly from your salary like other taxes. If you never earn enough money you never have to pay it back. If you choose to live and work abroad you don't have to pay either.

In the US, it's very risky. If you default on your loan, your credit will be terrible, and your credit determines the quality of your life. It determines what house you can get and whether you can get internet service. You have to pay your loan regardless of whether you have a job or not, or whatever your financial condition is. Exceptions can be made (you go through a loan handler, so it's whatever they say) but ove…

The US has a similar system to the UK called Income Based Repayment. It is not the default option, but I think it works similarly in principle.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#213

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 4:53 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #106

raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

Speaking as a born-and-bred American, America did not produce Facebook. Its content is mostly user-created: the world created Facebook. If we want to talk about specific public policies conducive to the formation of web start-ups, California created Facebook by refusing to enforce noncompete agreements -- building an environment in which "Take this job and shove it! I'll start my own company!" can't be met with "You'…

True. Yeah, the part about California is important. Or maybe even "The Silicon Valley" produced it.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#214

Post by sprash » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #63

yodsanklai wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social mobility is very low in France as well and education is pretty much free.

Social mobility is low everywhere in the world, and education is just one small factor so it's not easy to find a correlation there without looking at the bigger picture.

Maybe social mobility is low everywhere because smart parents breed smart kids. But considering genetics is deemed to be politically incorrect.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#215

Post by ctdonath » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #105

raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

If Germany couldn't have produced Facebook it's only because of the language. User content on facebook is mainly a written language thing, and it would have been hard spreading a website with mostly German content to English since so few Americans and brits speak German. On the other hand, most young Europeans speak English so Facebook had little trouble spreading from American universities to Europeans. Skype starte…

Apple didn't start with public funding. It was a hobby for a couple guys who sold their homemade computers at a club.

Don't confuse the fact that, during startup, a business used available public funding as just another available opportunity to leverage, vs a business that never would have started/survived without public funding.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#216

Post by jrmg » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:00 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #194

thro1237 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my exactly my point. In the US, many students take an educational loan -- but, I would argue that most students in the lower social strata (e.g. African Americans whose parents have not had the benefit of college education) still think consider it a risky option and that 'it is not for them'. And those who graduate after a student loan are forced to take suboptimal choices (because now they have to pay back t…

>> "consider it a risky option" In the UK system there is no risk. You only have to pay back the loan (form the government) when you are earning over a certain amount per year. It is taken directly from your salary like other taxes. If you never earn enough money you never have to pay it back. If you choose to live and work abroad you don't have to pay either.

People still _perceive_ it as risky - "OMG I'll be in £27,000 in debt after I graduate" - even if it's not actually risky for the reasons you mention!

I've long thought that framing it as a graduate tax would be much less discouraging to potential students.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#217

Post by zhte415 » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:02 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #169

shkkmo wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, calculations on the social cost of smoking are complicated. We pay more for their healthcare initially, but they die younger so we pay their social security for less time. Depending on how you calculate it, smoking can be seen to be cost neutral, or even to save the country money. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/08/how-much-does-smoki...

Ignores the value of a healthy productive member of society. What was that essay about burning Hobos for fuel?

Do you have a reference to your reference?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#218

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:02 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #208

raverbashing wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about the technology, I'm talking about the implementation. Doing this requires a lot of collective work: investment, property acquisition or licensing, railway building, etc This requires collective vision and goals

US population density: 34/km^2 Germany population density: 226/km^2 The Northeast US has a fairly good railway system despite it having a lot of legacy constraints not around in Germany. Most of the rest of the US is far to sprawling for railways to be effective.

See the average speed of Acela trains (time vs distance) compared with TGV/Thalys/ICE

And don't you think Germany has more legacy constraints with a higher density and older tracks?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#219

Post by melling » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:09 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #208

raverbashing wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about the technology, I'm talking about the implementation. Doing this requires a lot of collective work: investment, property acquisition or licensing, railway building, etc This requires collective vision and goals

US population density: 34/km^2 Germany population density: 226/km^2 The Northeast US has a fairly good railway system despite it having a lot of legacy constraints not around in Germany. Most of the rest of the US is far to sprawling for railways to be effective.

YES, this has been discussed a million times before. Please don't waste our time discussing the population density of the entire US. It's irrelevant.

Can you give us the population density of Southern California vs Spain, for example?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#220

Post by HarryHirsch » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:12 PM UTC

thro1237 wrote: post #193

xixixao wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much anecdotal as circumstantial. If everyone was taking the loan, you probably would too. It is the same in England, were students took loans for 3,5k pounds a year and now even 9k a year. Now I am not saying that the British system is the ideal (pros and cons) but I can certainly provide some more anecdotal evidence of many people who study for free (in the Czech Republic) and are basically wasting the…

This is my exactly my point. In the US, many students take an educational loan -- but, I would argue that most students in the lower social strata (e.g. African Americans whose parents have not had the benefit of college education) still think consider it a risky option and that 'it is not for them'. And those who graduate after a student loan are forced to take suboptimal choices (because now they have to pay back t…

Considering that African-Americans are who all sorts of really sketchy for-profit vocational colleges are marketing themselves to (Corinthian College, anyone?), it's not really surprising that this demographic thinks that college is a risky option.