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Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

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211–220 of 248 posts

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz > In 1938, Szasz moved to the United States, where he attended the University of Cincinnati for his Bachelor of Science in medicine, and received his M.D. from the same university in 1944.[7]

Fine, he was a morally bankrupt doctor. I agree I should not have claimed otherwise in my initial invective and apologize for my error, but let me reiterate: his stance on mental illness did not originate from his medical or scientific observations, but from his philosophy . And despite living through fifty years of startling advances in medicine, where huge swaths of mental illness were found to have biological orig…

If science had found biological origins or symptoms for mental illness in the brain, don't you think these would be used for diagnostic purposes?

Szasz was indeed a deeply unpopular man, but progress often depends upon such people.

For instance, did you know that he was the first psychiatrist to claim publicly that homosexuality is not a disease? (In 'Sexual Inversion: The Multiple Roots of Homosexuality', ed. by Judd Marmor, Basic Books, 1965)

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#212
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother committed suicide. He died for nothing,and nobody in the family even knows why he died. 10 years later, I feel like I dont care he died anymore, I just cant feel sorry for people committing suicide, it accomplishes nothing,except destroying a family ,making relatives feel guilty all their life. Suicide is the most selfish thing one can do, that's my opinion.

Would you be saying that if he died of cancer instead of mental illness? People have this bizarre idea that mental illness somehow doesn't "count". That you have to fight it, and that if you lose, it's your own fault. You are, right here, blaming the victim of the disease. Your brother died from a mental illness. It killed him, just as surely as cancer or a heart attack might have killed him. You'd never, ever, ever…

I agree it is not useful to blame suicide victims, but this issue cuts to heart of free will and personal responsibility and is not clearly resolved. I wish depression was the same as a physical illness, because then I could simply go to a doctor and be given a cure. But the only effective cure for depression is therapy, and no-one else can do it for you - therapist can only assist you to cure yourself. So without taking personal responsibility there is no hope of recovery.

Perhaps we should should recognise an ill person cannot be held to the same standard expected of a well person, but can still be considered to have some degree of agency in their actions.

It's especially problematic because mental illness is a fault in your thoughts, and not in, say, your arms or legs. But you don't have thoughts in the way you have arms and legs - you actually are your thoughts.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#213
So sorry for your loss. I lost my father about seven years ago. The time following that period was excruciating. It sounds like your mindset is in the right direction. Just make sure to surround yourself with people that support you.

Here's my story. If you ever need to bounce ideas back and forth or just need someone to talk to, send me a message via twitter and we can take it offline.

https://medium.com/philosophy-and-psychology/97b44f17cd81

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, he was a morally bankrupt doctor. I agree I should not have claimed otherwise in my initial invective and apologize for my error, but let me reiterate: his stance on mental illness did not originate from his medical or scientific observations, but from his philosophy . And despite living through fifty years of startling advances in medicine, where huge swaths of mental illness were found to have biological orig…

If science had found biological origins or symptoms for mental illness in the brain, don't you think these would be used for diagnostic purposes? Szasz was indeed a deeply unpopular man, but progress often depends upon such people. For instance, did you know that he was the first psychiatrist to claim publicly that homosexuality is not a disease? (In 'Sexual Inversion: The Multiple Roots of Homosexuality', ed. by Jud…

> If science had found biological origins or symptoms for mental illness in the brain, don't you think these would be used for diagnostic purposes?

Science has found biological symptoms for Alzheimer's and rabies. Unfortunately, these can only be firmly identified post-mortem and are thus not useful for diagnostic purposes. Just two examples if diseases with biological markers that are not useful.

> For instance, did you know that he was the first psychiatrist to claim publicly that homosexuality is not a disease? (In 'Sexual Inversion: The Multiple Roots of Homosexuality', ed. by Judd Marmor, Basic Books, 1965)

A broken clock is right twice a day. When you claim mental illness doesn't exist in toto, then of course you will be "right" about bullshit mental illnesses like homosexuality.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#215
post #24

I get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed suicide. The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. My…

If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. 100%, although I wish we talked more about the challenge of determining that someone is suicidal. Here's what I wrestle with the most about this. I fear that if I "misdiagnose" someone as suicidal, that I might have now given them the idea that there is such a thing as su…

A while ago I had a problem with anxiety and basically panic attacks. Back then I didn't know how to deal with this, so eventually when it got too much I asked for help. I went to a doctor and the first thing they asked about was suicide. I thought, well, I hadn't really considered that, but now that you mention it, it's probably something I should think about. I wasn't suicidal, so I guess it didn't matter, but it sure does make you think about it when everyone is asking you. Overall though I think it is better to ask about it, because you really do need to know. I've heard though that a lot of people that do commit suicide are good at hiding things from people, even their family may not be aware that something is wrong, so even asking that question is not sufficient. When I hear about people committing suicide, I often think why didn't anyone help them. Often the truth is that nobody was aware, that's sad in it's own way, but it does show that a lot of people can keep these things to themselves.

The next thing I felt about the suicide question was that it was a way of categorising people. If they considered suicide, then they need immediate help, otherwise it's no so important, so offer them some pills, refer them to counselling (which was offered to me with a 4 month waiting list, that was not a lot of help). The pills weren't what I needed anyway, so I didn't really get a lot out of going to see the doctor. Talking to your family about it is a really important step though.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#216
post #53
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's a tragic loss, it's purpose is moot because many people read the entire thing and still don't know what his symptoms were. If you want to desensitize the discussion about mental illness, you need to expose the underlying conditions and make people aware.

This is true. I was an advocate of complete openness. My mother is understandably very sensitive about the wording used so I wanted to respect her wishes.

Well, if you want people to not stigmatize mental illness, you should start by not doing it yourself.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People disagree with that perspective because it implies that the brain is entirely deterministic biologically and has no plasticity. That you have no mental control over your physiology. That you don't have control over your attitude and outlook, etc.

Attitude is proven to have an effect on cancer remission rates. Yet we still call it a disease and say that it killed you, not that you selfishly killed yourself due to not getting better. You have some control. Far less than the "suicide is selfish" idiocy assumes.

So you're claiming suicide is caused by a biological mechanism? That once we identify that mechanism, we could prevent suicide?

Great, maybe that's the case. However, there's no more evidence for that than the assertion that suicide is a choice.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#218

There is an organisation called BlueHackers.org [0] which was started at the Open Source Developers Conference. It has a strong presence at linux.conf.au as well. The organisation started from a very brief lightning talk that went something along the lines of (me paraphrasing from memory): "Who here in this room has experienced depression?" (for which the person asking the question put their hand up. After a few seco…

Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person? If i was depressed, the last person I'd want to talk to about it are my hacker friends. The vast majority of the population simply have no idea how to talk to mentally ill people.

> Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person?

Excuse me, but what "formal background" is that? It's not as though psychology is a science, or that psychologists know what causes depression or how to treat it -- public evidence clearly proves they do not.

The field of psychology is such a disaster that the director of the NIMH recently ruled that the DSM (psychology's "bible") may no longer be used as the basis for scientific research proposals, for the simple reason that it has no scientific content. The director said:

Source: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/transforming-dia...

Quote: "While DSM has been described as a “Bible” for the field, it is, at best, a dictionary, creating a set of labels and defining each. The strength of each of the editions of DSM has been “reliability” – each edition has ensured that clinicians use the same terms in the same ways. The weakness is its lack of validity."

"Unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma, or AIDS, the DSM diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure. In the rest of medicine, this would be equivalent to creating diagnostic systems based on the nature of chest pain or the quality of fever. Indeed, symptom-based diagnosis, once common in other areas of medicine, has been largely replaced in the past half century as we have understood that symptoms alone rarely indicate the best choice of treatment. Patients with mental disorders deserve better. [emphasis added]

As to depression specifically, psychological treatments are notoriously ineffective, but alternative neuroscientific approaches like deep brain stimulation (DBS) are showing great promise. A recent flurry of treatment outcomes that apply deep brain stimulation lead to outcomes in which, by throwing a switch, a brain surgeon can literally turn depression on and off.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html...

Quote: '"So we turn it on," Mayberg told me later, "and all of a sudden she says to me, 'It's very strange,' she says, 'I know you've been with me in the operating room this whole time. I know you care about me. But it's not that. I don't know what you just did. But I'm looking at you, and it's like I just feel suddenly more connected to you.' '

"Mayberg, stunned, signaled with her hand to the others, out of Deanna's view, to turn the stimulator off."

'"And they turn it off," Mayberg said, "and she goes: 'God, it's just so odd. You just went away again. I guess it wasn't really anything.'"'

I emphasize this procedure is still experimental and is not yet being offered as a clinical treatment. My point is that people need to get over their reverence for psychology -- it's not scientific, and there's no evidence that it is effective in any scientific sense.

This may come as a surprise to some, but within the mental health field, a revolution is taking place -- a revolution that intends to replace psychological treatments with neuroscientific ones.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#219
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person? If i was depressed, the last person I'd want to talk to about it are my hacker friends. The vast majority of the population simply have no idea how to talk to mentally ill people.

Another reason to put the sticker on there is to spread awareness and end the stigma. Some people think that mental illness isn't a real illness. But if you have something wrong with your lungs, you go to a lung doctor; so if you have something wrong with your head/mind, you should go to a mind doctor.

> if you have something wrong with your lungs, you go to a lung doctor; so if you have something wrong with your head/mind, you should go to a mind doctor.

Yes -- except there is no such thing as a "mind doctor", at least in a scientific sense. Psychiatrists and psychologists cannot treat depression, and increasing amounts of neuroscientific evidence demonstrate that depression is not a mental illness, it's a physical one.

A recent study of deep brain stimulation (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html...) is showing very promising preliminary results, results in which a patient's depression lifts instantly when the stimulating signal is applied, and resumes when the signal is removed. Apart from being a promising indication for future research, this study shows that depression is not a mental illness, the domain of psychiatry and psychology, it's a physical illness, the domain of neuroscience.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justin and Alan are not me.

Glad to hear it. Since you are apparently not, as JustinCEO claimed, hellbanned, I'll remind you that I'm still waiting on those citations. You demanded them from everyone else, it's only fair that you should provide your own.

i was blocked from posting for around 3 hours, which is why i didn't answer most of my critics. email me curi@curi.us if you want to discuss it further.
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