This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup • Hacker News Board

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#211

Post by pavelrub » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:41 PM UTC

hbags wrote: post #137

meritt wrote: post #3

> In my mind, it’s a little preposterous that if I want to do so, however, I have to be ok with being felt up and indirectly insulted. To the author: You're right, it's unacceptable but you know how to fix it? You say something at the point in which it occurs. Nip it in the bud. Running off to write yet another gender-division-in-the-tech-world blog which will be read, primarily, by the sort of folk who already agree…

I think it's absolutely disgusting that you criticize the victim for documenting what happened to her. It's despicable and downright fucking evil that you basically accuse her of sharing her story solely because she wants attention. The worst part of your god-awful post is that it's currently pinned to the top of this board. The fact that your disgusting, insensitive post is at the top is why women don't work in tech…

I think you are wildly misinterpreting merrit.

The point is not that blogging about it is bad, but that calling people out on the spot is even better, and people should do it more. Of course it's frightening, and of course it's harder - I'm not sure I would've done it in a similar situation if I were a female, and that's exactly why outside encouragement is important.

I personally would like it very much if people - both male and female - would react more by calling out unwanted behavior right on the spot, and I hope OP will feel encouraged to do so if something like this happens again in the future, knowing at least that she has the support of some people on HN.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#212

Post by davorak » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:41 PM UTC

rfnslyr wrote: post #151

ossreality wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very amusing and ironic to me that you are completely projecting the air of "generalization". I didn't see the author anywhere saying "All bitcoin users are like this" and in fact, you'll find me chiding someone else, here, for saying that. You just want to reduce this to something that you can dismiss and ignore, because it's complicated and you can't hold your own when it comes to the details. And, in this cas…

The fact that this article even exists means she didn't do anything about it. It's not a helpless matter at all, but she's acting as if this is such a big event it warranted a whole essay on the matter. Like she just couldn't WAIT to leave the male stronghold of this meetup to seek emotional counselling online. I am very open minded to problems that matter. There is no problem here. She ran into a super duper asshole…

> She ran into a super duper asshole

Well not just that. If anyone at the meeting made it clear that the comments that were happening were not appropriate or welcome either I missed it in the article. It most people this creates the perception that it is acceptable behavior according to group standards. I would bet this perception of group standards is studied phenomena that is the default perception by the majority of people. So it seems reasonable that most people would get uncomfortable by the situation.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#213

Post by Crito » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:46 PM UTC

pavelrub wrote: post #211

hbags wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's absolutely disgusting that you criticize the victim for documenting what happened to her. It's despicable and downright fucking evil that you basically accuse her of sharing her story solely because she wants attention. The worst part of your god-awful post is that it's currently pinned to the top of this board. The fact that your disgusting, insensitive post is at the top is why women don't work in tech…

I think you are wildly misinterpreting merrit. The point is not that blogging about it is bad, but that calling people out on the spot is even better, and people should do it more. Of course it's frightening, and of course it's harder - I'm not sure I would've done it in a similar situation if I were a female, and that's exactly why outside encouragement is important. I personally would like it very much if people -…

> I personally would like it very much if people - both male and female - would react more by calling out unwanted behavior right on the spot

Perhaps somewhat ironically, this is what 'hbags is doing here.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#214

Post by Crito » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:48 PM UTC

cases wrote: post #184

hbags wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's absolutely disgusting that you criticize the victim for documenting what happened to her. It's despicable and downright fucking evil that you basically accuse her of sharing her story solely because she wants attention. The worst part of your god-awful post is that it's currently pinned to the top of this board. The fact that your disgusting, insensitive post is at the top is why women don't work in tech…

100% agree. I shouldn't even bother commenting here and this won't be the first time I'm giving up on HN, but seeing the replies you're getting I couldn't leave without at least offering you my support and letting the community know what a sick and twisted bunch of people tech, HN, pg, reddit and the rest of you are. Absolutely disgusting bunch of people. And that's coming from a privileged white male.

As far as I can tell, pg is not involved with this discussion at all. Was there an earlier discussion about this incident that I am missing?

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#215

Post by silencio » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:49 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #194

silencio wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the personal space problem no matter where I go and the "frigid bitch" thing for even the slightest offense is common, so yeah it is definitely a human problem. It just seems that in the tech community there are people more eager to jump to namecalling/victim blaming/harassment or defending what happened. (Scroll down for some great examples, if they haven't been deleted yet!) There are good people for sure he…

the "frigid bitch" thing for even the slightest offense is common You must meet a lot of real assholes :( Again, not a woman, but I've literally never heard a man speak those words, at least that I recall. Edit: I may have heard it spoken before in the context of ex-wives

So I say "frigid bitch" but it's not always spoken or spoken in those exact words. Everything from just plain "bitch" to calling me a whore, a slut, a cunt, or insulting the way I look and my mother and my mother's mother. Sometimes it might be justified, more often it's not.

It was worst with dating and relationships, where on okcupid and fetlife and other such communities some guy would message me saying I'm hot etc. and sometimes go into some disgusting and inappropriate fantasy about sleeping with two women because I say I'm bisexual, and then call me a ugly whore because I rejected him with a "sorry we're not really a match" ...because it's true. This happened with surprising frequency. I eventually made my profile visible to other women only, and then I gave up altogether soon after that.

I would also try to go to events with friends because just that one act tends to make creeps think twice, often because they believe you're "just" a girlfriend/wife (another terrible stereotype). In addition, I had a couple fake wedding rings for going out at night in general. Now I have a real ring and it's funny how the new assumptions are now sticking around for good. And I still only go out to events with my fiancé or limit myself to events run by women-focused or women-only groups. Being in SF this is easy, not so much in LA where I used to live and elsewhere. Also, I make a point of not giving this advice out to anyone because it smells a lot like the "don't wear revealing clothes/don't walk alone at night or else you might be raped" victim blaming so take it with a grain of salt ;) But a lot of women do this in general. It's kind of sad but it's life. It's also one of many reasons why tech sucks balls for women to be in.

I'm pretty sure for every asshole of a guy I encountered there were others and especially other women in his life that would speak well of him. I'm convinced most people that cause problems just need a small reminder to not be creeps. Unfortunately the internet and pseudonymity makes that hard, and makes it easy for real, persistent assholes to perpetuate their bullshit.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#216

Post by vacri » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:50 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #143

lauradhamilton wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just go around slapping people.

She can go around slapping people who are groping her. Absolutely she can. What, you're worried about him escalating from there? In a roomful of almost entirely guys? He won't make it very far with that...

The bulk of the article was about not being treated as an intellectual equal by the group, not the physical contact of one person.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#217

Post by wonderzombie » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:51 PM UTC

meritt wrote: post #3

> In my mind, it’s a little preposterous that if I want to do so, however, I have to be ok with being felt up and indirectly insulted. To the author: You're right, it's unacceptable but you know how to fix it? You say something at the point in which it occurs. Nip it in the bud. Running off to write yet another gender-division-in-the-tech-world blog which will be read, primarily, by the sort of folk who already agree…

That's the sort of story that'll spread like wildfire.

You must be using a different Internet from me. On my Internet, it looks something like this:

"Oh, you did speak up? You should have spoken up louder. You (should|should not) have cursed at him. You (should|should not) have been more polite. You (should|should not) have left. You (should|should not) have called the cops."

You can nitpick someone's past circumstances ad infinitum, as being too much of this or too little of that because there will never be a perfect, falsifiable individual test case— someone will find a reason why it's invalid. And after the fact, an individual can't go back and revise what they did, so all folks like you have to do is pick a reason why they did it wrong, and you can safely write it off.

In actuality, post isn't meant to be a conclusive proof or some damning, final conclusion. It's a data point, one among many as women get up the courage to talk about this shit. We need data points because there is actually a large subset of people who simply don't believe this is even a problem, let alone something they ought to think about.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#218

Post by Erwin » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:53 PM UTC

runjake wrote: post #15

meritt wrote: post #3

> In my mind, it’s a little preposterous that if I want to do so, however, I have to be ok with being felt up and indirectly insulted. To the author: You're right, it's unacceptable but you know how to fix it? You say something at the point in which it occurs. Nip it in the bud. Running off to write yet another gender-division-in-the-tech-world blog which will be read, primarily, by the sort of folk who already agree…

I'm really turned off by these posts, too. I roll my eyes and mutter "Christ, not another one". But I'm a male who doesn't have to worry about being groped and I keep my hands to myself. But let me guess how the reality turns out for her: - She says something about it. - The guy who is misbehaving is probably physically bigger than her. She may feel fearful of speaking up. or - She speaks up and gets called a "prude"…

Here's an informative post from reddit which covers some of the issues of why women might not speak up and not resist crass advances: http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1u9994/startin...

Unusually the writer of that comment has received 12 separate gifts of reddit gold subscription (from 12 separate people) -- reddit's social tipping system (they're $4 or so each).

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#219

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:54 PM UTC

hbags wrote: post #137

meritt wrote: post #3

> In my mind, it’s a little preposterous that if I want to do so, however, I have to be ok with being felt up and indirectly insulted. To the author: You're right, it's unacceptable but you know how to fix it? You say something at the point in which it occurs. Nip it in the bud. Running off to write yet another gender-division-in-the-tech-world blog which will be read, primarily, by the sort of folk who already agree…

I think it's absolutely disgusting that you criticize the victim for documenting what happened to her. It's despicable and downright fucking evil that you basically accuse her of sharing her story solely because she wants attention. The worst part of your god-awful post is that it's currently pinned to the top of this board. The fact that your disgusting, insensitive post is at the top is why women don't work in tech…

[deleted]

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#220

Post by vacri » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 11:54 PM UTC

It's interesting that so much of the commentary is focused on the actions of one man described in only the first two paragraphs, when the article is really talking, at length, about women not being treated as intellectual equals by the group.

There is an irony here in that the discussion is less about what she's saying and more about how her body should be treated.