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Melatonin

gwern.net

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Re: Melatonin

#211

Post by jobu »

pstuart wrote: post #105
jobu wrote: post #98

My youngest daughter is borderline ADHD, and rather than trying Ritalin we've been using Melatonin in the evenings to help ease the bedtime process. (In the hopes that more sleep will help her cope with problems focusing.) The change has been dramatic. Previously it was a 3-4 hour battle each night for her to get ready for bed and stay in bed. Now with 3mg of Melatonin she spontaneously decides to get ready for bed h…

3mg might be too much. I am not a doctor, but my sleep doctor is, and she recommended half that amount -- right around sunset.

That was a concern I had too, so we tried breaking them in half, but didn't notice much difference in her nighttime routine after a week. We actually gave up on the melatonin for a while after that, but I decided to try again with an increased dose after talking with a coworker. Their child is more severely ADHD, and he was taking 5mg per night (and Ritalin).

The pills I have are a dual-release version, so that might have had an affect as well (http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-dual-release-me...).

Re: Melatonin

#212

Post by vldx »

Anyone used Melatonin w/ 5-HTP?

Is it safe (is it worth it) taking Melatonin if you're under 30 years old?

Re: Melatonin

#213

Post by gwern »

gwern wrote: post #208
pesenti wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No rigorous formulation? The black swan has a very simple mathematical model: an unlikely event with an effect so great that it will affect the expected value. For example, a greater risk of dying after 20 or 30 years of use - which has not yet been studied. In your calculation of ROI you completely ignore unknown long term effects. Yes it's hard and often impossible to quantify black swans. But keeping them in mind…

> The black swan has a very simple mathematical model: an unlikely event with an effect so great that it will affect the expected value. For example, a greater risk of dying after 20 or 30 years of use - which has not yet been studied. In your calculation of ROI you completely ignore unknown long term effects. Alright, let me clarify it then: by the remotely meaningful version presented by Taleb, your argument doesn'…

> That's true of every black swan - the worst that can happen is everybody dies.

Not at all. Taleb like to use the example of selling insurance and shorts, where your downside is unlimited. Millions, billions, trillions... Think AIG or LTCM. Not everything has consequences solely for health.

> You do not mention any studies of long term effects and you consider FUD raising the possibility that there could be adverse effects.

In the absence of any evidence whatsoever for that, and plenty of positive correlations, short-term studies without any problem... Yes. It is FUD. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

> When more and more studies show negative long term effect of substances that were considered innocuous (like vitamins), it's not FUD, it's being reasonably cautious.

Only some vitamins show any mortality effects, the mortality effects while real are pretty small, the vitamins did not deliver the long-term health benefits promised (but never really demonstrated in experiments) which might offset the harm, and the vitamins were being consumed in huge doses. The first reduces the possibility of any such outcome, the second points out that you are exaggerating the harm, the third means that vitamins were a purely speculative play unlike melatonin, and the fourth reduces the concern that any such thing would happen with melatonin when one sticks to the suggested doses like 0.5mg rather than 5mg.

Re: Melatonin

#214

Post by nickthemagicman »

trendoid wrote: post #133
nickthemagicman wrote: post #107

This is very interesting. Wish hacker news had more hacking the human body articles.

Check OP's website for other hacks. Very comprehensive research(meta-analysis) on pretty much all nootropics and memory improving techniques.

Cool thanks. I'll check it out.

Re: Melatonin

#215

Post by meepmorp »

smokey_the_bear wrote: post #191
meepmorp wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume your child is grown up, because 10 hrs of sleep a night for someone with an infant is absurd. And unfair.

He's 12 months, and I am absurdly lucky he has slept from 8:30 pm - 7 am since 7 months. He is really intensely physical at all times while awake, which I think wears him out.

Ok, 1 year is reasonable. My daughter started sleeping though the night pretty early, too, but the first few months were weird and hallucinatory in their sleeplessness.

Re: Melatonin

#216

Post by computer »

rms wrote: post #207
ChristianMarks wrote: post #114

Gwern comes close to suggesting filtering blue light, but I will repeat a previous post. I've tried melatonin, but it is no substitute for for filtering blue light in my experience, and it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares (granted, a night dreaming of EAS Emergency Action Notifications is better than no sleep at all). I used to be an owl for years--decades. A regular 9-5 schedule seemed out of reach.…

Nightmares in response to melatonin suggests low serotonin. Try 5-HTP sometime, which is a partial prodrug for melatonin and in practice works quite similarly to melatonin, except it induces vivid happy dreams and is the proscribed treatment for night terrors in children.

> Nightmares in response to melatonin suggests low serotonin.

Could you please provide a source for that statement? :)

Re: Melatonin

#217

Post by ChristianMarks »

AJ007 wrote: post #167
ChristianMarks wrote: post #114

Gwern comes close to suggesting filtering blue light, but I will repeat a previous post. I've tried melatonin, but it is no substitute for for filtering blue light in my experience, and it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares (granted, a night dreaming of EAS Emergency Action Notifications is better than no sleep at all). I used to be an owl for years--decades. A regular 9-5 schedule seemed out of reach.…

I tried melatonin, among other things, years back, but it wasn't until I became very mindful of light pollution past 9pm that I saw a huge correction in my terrible sleep patterns. Never even heard of that goggle trick, fascinating. I minimize all of the blue light in my place though I am left wondering if just minimal light is the most important part. Turn all the lights off, a few nightlights, a computer monitor (f…

  ...it wasn't until I became very mindful of light 
  pollution past 9pm that I saw a huge correction in my 
  terrible sleep patterns.
Yes, my experience exactly.

  Never even heard of that goggle trick, fascinating.
If you have a chance, read the Amazon reviews of the Uvex goggles. I've suggested the goggles to friends and acquaintances, and they say that the goggles work. Some gave up because they don't like wearing them. One person wants to do precise color matching in PhotoShop at 2AM.

On another note: although I don't have a Facebook account, I find it more than a little amusing that the goggles black out the blue color scheme of Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg's green-red color blindness led him to adopt a color scheme that may have exacerbated insomnia around the planet.

  I minimize all of the blue light in my place though I am 
  left wondering if just minimal light is the most important part.
Perhaps. Since I'm changing the environment not only for myself, but for my significant other, I have had to make some compromises--though she is supportive and likes the warm glow of the amber compact fluorescent lamps. Wearing the amber goggles works for me. Also, I only use amber compact fluorescent lamps at my desk at home.

Re: Melatonin

#218

Post by ChristianMarks »

ChristianMarks wrote: post #114

Gwern comes close to suggesting filtering blue light, but I will repeat a previous post. I've tried melatonin, but it is no substitute for for filtering blue light in my experience, and it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares (granted, a night dreaming of EAS Emergency Action Notifications is better than no sleep at all). I used to be an owl for years--decades. A regular 9-5 schedule seemed out of reach.…

Too late to edit: replace "was both" with "were both" in the last paragraph.

Re: Melatonin

#219

Post by ChristianMarks »

shardling wrote: post #160
tedks wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it tends to induce horrific, apocalyptic nightmares I've used melatonin for years, as have many of my friends and family, and I've never had anyone mention this. I've always had more vivid dreams with melatonin, but I've never had nightmares.

Melatonin intensified my dreams but did not prompt nightmares; but then, I never have nightmares any way! A friend who was prone to nightmares tried melatonin and it made her nightmares worse. So perhaps it just induces worse nightmares in those prone to having them in the first place.

It is a common side effect http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/melatonin possibly dosage related. I have found that 1 mg is more effective than 5 mg, but perhaps I could try .5 mg.

Re: Melatonin

#220

Post by pesenti »

gwern wrote: post #213
gwern wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The black swan has a very simple mathematical model: an unlikely event with an effect so great that it will affect the expected value. For example, a greater risk of dying after 20 or 30 years of use - which has not yet been studied. In your calculation of ROI you completely ignore unknown long term effects. Alright, let me clarify it then: by the remotely meaningful version presented by Taleb, your argument doesn'…

> That's true of every black swan - the worst that can happen is everybody dies. Not at all. Taleb like to use the example of selling insurance and shorts, where your downside is unlimited. Millions, billions, trillions... Think AIG or LTCM. Not everything has consequences solely for health. > You do not mention any studies of long term effects and you consider FUD raising the possibility that there could be adverse…

If everybody died, money would have no value. So yes, it's always worse than losing an unlimited amount of money.
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