Earlier quoted context omitted.
My problem with "natural rights" is that they're a way to take one set of arbitrary priorities and elevate them to some sort of law of nature, without having to justify them on utilitarian grounds. You have a right to property but not a right to education. Why? Because the former is a "natural right." Its no different from resorting to "because the Bible says so." Its also used to undermine democratic consensus in th…
> You have a right to property but not a right to education. I don't believe in "natural rights", nor do I believe concept has any real value. That said, you're misconstruing their argument. Someone who believes in natural rights would say: > You have a right to own property, but you aren't entitled to be given property. Similarly, you have the right to get an education, but you aren't entitled to be given an educati…
New Zealand bans some software patents
211–220 of 230 posts
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
So there was never only a single human in existence?
Correct. There was a population of animals that at some stage started to approximate what we would call human.
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Publishers represent artists and take a cut. Of course they want a monopoly, otherwise how can they pay royalties to artists? Walt Disney was an artist, and what we have now is Mickey Mouse copyright law. I'm not saying that IP laws are amazing by any means. I'm saying they are attempts to protect things that we have always valued on a moral basis: invention, creation, branding, and secrecy / privacy. It doesn't even…
Read the history of copyright -- the Star Chamber, the Stationer's company, and how publishers lobbied for copyrights (using authors as a convenient excuse). Seriously, you should look at the actual history of copyright law. It was not created for the sake of artists. It was not created for moral reasons. It was invented for purely political and business-motivated reasons, nothing more . "The majority of artists feel…
I agree that copyright law is terribly implemented (DMCA, DRM, expiration 70 years after death, 3 strikes rules, etc.), but nevertheless, I don't know a single artist (or knowledge worker) that doesn't feel that the Berne Convention provides them at least a minimal protection against outright plagiarism. Even the the most liberal Creative Commons licenses build on top of copyright, even BSD style licenses do.
I mean, would you be okay if I took your work, erased your name, and slapped mine in its place?
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Read the history of copyright -- the Star Chamber, the Stationer's company, and how publishers lobbied for copyrights (using authors as a convenient excuse). Seriously, you should look at the actual history of copyright law. It was not created for the sake of artists. It was not created for moral reasons. It was invented for purely political and business-motivated reasons, nothing more . "The majority of artists feel…
Laws are programs. It doesn't matter what the programmer who wrote the program wanted the program to do. It matters how the program is used and what it does. I agree that copyright law is terribly implemented (DMCA, DRM, expiration 70 years after death, 3 strikes rules, etc.), but nevertheless, I don't know a single artist (or knowledge worker) that doesn't feel that the Berne Convention provides them at least a mini…
"I mean, would you be okay if I took your work, erased your name, and slapped mine in its place?"
In fact that happens all the time with work-for-hire copyrights. Anyone who works as a programmer for Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc. can expect to receive no credit for their creative work, only a pay check for having done it. Think of all the independent contractors out there who write software for big corporations, get paid, and get neither recognition nor credit for their work.
Take a look at movie and music sharing on the Internet, and what you will see is that plagiarism is almost entirely absent. Nobody is claiming credit for some musician's work when they share that musician's recordings online. That is probably copyright infringement (whether a particular act even constitutes infringement is determined by a courtroom battle), but it is not at all plagiarism.
The history of copyright is important here, because it explains things that otherwise make no sense at all. If copyright is about plagiarism, why is there no requirement that credit be given the actual author / artist / creator of covered works? If copyright is about paying creative workers, why is it that the vast majority of artists need to work a second job? The answer is that copyright is about neither plagiarism nor paying artists; it is and has always been about business and government interests. The reason publishers, recording studios, movie studios, and so forth have become so disproportionately wealthy by comparison with the people whose works they sell is that copyright as a system was designed with industry in mind.
Your original claim was that copyright is the legal embodiment of a widely held moral belief or of some generally held value. I am asserting that this is as untrue in the 21st century as it was in the 17th century. Copyright continues to be a system that is design for and which favors certain industries; artists are a secondary concern, just as they were when the Stationer's company lobbied for the Statute of Anne.
Finally, plagiarism is readily solved with technology; copyright infringement is inherently unsolvable. The solution to plagiarism is watermarking, embedding a hard-to-remove message in images/audio/video/text that identifies the creator (technical details omitted). This was studied in the 80s and 90s and at one time it was believed that there might be a market for such technology, as a way to combat plagiarism on the Internet. In the end, though, it worked out that plagiarism is not so important as long as everyone is being paid; copyright became the important issue online, with plagiarism being a secondary and far less important concern.
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You have a right to property but not a right to education. I don't believe in "natural rights", nor do I believe concept has any real value. That said, you're misconstruing their argument. Someone who believes in natural rights would say: > You have a right to own property, but you aren't entitled to be given property. Similarly, you have the right to get an education, but you aren't entitled to be given an educati…
Are you entitled to suck the milk out of your mother's breast?
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Whether they should be is a different question" That's the exactly question we're discussing. The legal term "intellectual property rights" steal gravitas from more important (physical) "property rights", which are natural rights and are essential in a free society. Your point is that "intellectual property" is a legal term. No one disagrees. The point of the people railing against the phrase "intellectual property"…
> The point of the people railing against the phrase "intellectual property" is that the phrase is misleading I venture you may have missed my point. The phrase isn't misleading, it's correct. Having the word "property" in its name isn't what makes it a property right. It's a property right because it behaves as a property right (ownable, transferable, binds the world). "Replacing [the word 'property' in IP] with som…
Referring back to the U.S. Constitution, a limited monopoly was granted "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". No one would argue that those aren't noble goals, but one wouldn't be oppressed if his patents and copyrights were violated.
If one's home or savings were stolen or unfairly confiscated on the other hand...
If you want to talk programming, it is a design bug to label patent monopolies as "intellectual property rights" because the "property rights" abstraction does not fit the idea of limited monopoly powers. Because, among other reasons, violations of "property rights" have side effects of a different kind and magnitude than a failure to respect monopoly privileges.
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is a government granted monopoly "property?" Is cancelling such a monopoly a "taking?"
> Is a government granted monopoly "property?" Is a car red? Some cars are red, some aren't. Some red things are cars, some aren't. Government-granted monopolies can create property rights, sure. Other property rights (even intangible property rights) exist that are neither government-granted nor monopolies - obvious example, a debt. And a government can grant a monopoly without creating a property right, e.g. by cho…
If Pat told Alex, "I love you", Alex would rightly infer that Pat had just expressed romantic interest. If Pat then said, "...like I love my dog," Alex would then rightly be confused (and angry).
In the same way, the term "intellectual property rights" overloads the phrase "property rights". It's a poor choice of words and since "intellectual property rights" is the neologism, it should change. Otherwise, we'll have to come up with a new term for natural "property rights" and teach everyone what that term means.
And debts are not properties, they are stipulations in contracts that can sometimes be transferable. There are rights involved with forming contracts, but they aren't the same as property rights.
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let me recap, because discussions become convoluted in forum format. First ataggart makes the point that elevating patent and copyright privileges to the level of natural rights is wrong and implies (through Orwell) that confusing intellectual property rights and physical property rights leads to foolish thinking. Then, you make the argument that it doesn't matter because, "Every legal concept is entirely the governm…
The difference between legal rights and natural rights is that legal rights are guaranteed by force. As soon as you guarantee a natural right by force it becomes a legal right: you make the law.
According to you, it is morally OK for government to decide what is a right and what isn't. In that case, is there anything morally wrong with government deciding to nationalize all retirement savings?
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Laws are programs. It doesn't matter what the programmer who wrote the program wanted the program to do. It matters how the program is used and what it does. I agree that copyright law is terribly implemented (DMCA, DRM, expiration 70 years after death, 3 strikes rules, etc.), but nevertheless, I don't know a single artist (or knowledge worker) that doesn't feel that the Berne Convention provides them at least a mini…
Do not conflate copyright infringement with plagiarism, they are entirely orthogonal. You can plagiarize work without violating a copyright. You can violate a copyright while giving full credit. "I mean, would you be okay if I took your work, erased your name, and slapped mine in its place?" In fact that happens all the time with work-for-hire copyrights. Anyone who works as a programmer for Microsoft, Google, Apple,…
When you write code for a company, the company usually owns the copyright, not you. You've assigned copyright to them. Do you release all of your personal code into the public domain? Why not? If you use a free software or open source license, you're relying on copyright protections.
To reiterate, I'm not claiming that IP laws are a perfect match for longstanding morals about invention, branding, authorship, and secrecy, I'm claiming that they are better than a 0% match.
I'm not even disagreeing that IP laws as they stand grossly favor big businesses instead of creators. I'm just disagreeing with the claim that IP laws are 100% made up by the government and have nothing to do with our morals about wanting to protect creative work. I think we need better IP laws that correspond more closely to our morals about creation and less closely to our morals about capitalism.
Re: New Zealand bans some software patents
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Is a government granted monopoly "property?" Is a car red? Some cars are red, some aren't. Some red things are cars, some aren't. Government-granted monopolies can create property rights, sure. Other property rights (even intangible property rights) exist that are neither government-granted nor monopolies - obvious example, a debt. And a government can grant a monopoly without creating a property right, e.g. by cho…
I think the word "red" isn't a fair comparison. I'd use the word "love". If Pat told Alex, "I love you", Alex would rightly infer that Pat had just expressed romantic interest. If Pat then said, "...like I love my dog," Alex would then rightly be confused (and angry). In the same way, the term "intellectual property rights" overloads the phrase "property rights". It's a poor choice of words and since "intellectual pr…
So I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here, based on our different sets of priorities.
(As for debts, in English law they are choses in action, and so intangible moveables. See e.g. Lord Goff's comments in Lipkin Gorman v Karpnale [1991] 2 AC 548, p. 574 at [A]. So a debt isn't quite a purely contractual right: the difference is between a claim in debt, e.g. an action for the price, and a claim for damages. The former will often allow some kind of proprietary remedy - e.g. a lien over goods if the debt is from a sale of those goods, the ability to trace your title to the debt into other people's pockets (as in Lipkin, which was a purely personal action for unjust enrichment), or in some circumstances even a full-blown constructive trust (e.g. in a Chase Manhattan v Israel-British Bank type situation). The latter never will.
That said, I did perhaps choose a bad example, as the line can be a thin one. A better example of a property right that doesn't give you a monopoly might've been be an easement. (Freehold covenants are another interesting example, as starting in the mid-19th century, they've sortof morphed from purely being personal, contractual rights into being property rights)).