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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#211

Post by jasonlotito »

I think it's fine that Linus act that way in the context that he's in. However, there are far too many people agreeing that his way is the best way in all environments (or at least, in all "professional" environments). The reality is, each context is different. There are times when he's not going to curse at people. When he's not going to act the way he does.

Which leads to my point: you shouldn't be using his reasoning to justify your own actions. You are not a kernel developer replying to people on the kernel mailing list (unless you really are =)).

The fact that people look up to him and admire him does mean his cursing and attitude does have a harmful impact: people see him doing and use that as qualification for their own attitude.

There is also the assumption that professionalism means a lot of negative things. The truth is, it doesn't. Being a professional isn't about office politics (despite what some might want to believe). Professionalism is all about context. To slap a definition to professionalism and assume it applies everywhere equally means you need to accept those defining profanity as abusive everywhere in all context.

Basically, if you are using Linus as a justification to allow you to curse or be rude, you are doing it wrong and missing the point.

p.s. I should also note that I believe that anything that worth doing well takes effort. And while it's easier to skip being polite all together, I find that it's usually worth the effort. In the end, you spend less time dealing with discussions of profanity, and get to discuss the actual point. Context matters of course, which is why it works on the kernel mailing list, but not in many others.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#212

Post by criley2 »

smtddr wrote: post #61
jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

I think his position isn't "If you don't like it, get out", I think his position is much better summarized by the quintessential hacker ideology: "lead, follow, or get out of the way".

Linus is leading. So challenge his leadership, follow the man, or get out of his way.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#213

Post by officemonkey »

vacri wrote: post #131
officemonkey wrote: post #85

Linus gets to do what he wants to do because he was extraordinarily successful in his field from a very young age. In other words, he's spoiled. If he had to "work for a living," ie: work in a job he needed, rather than a job he wanted, he would likely have had a job which enforced behavioral norms. He probably wouldn't have been as happy, but he likely would more polite. One of the things schools do is to socialize…

And yet another comment chiding Torvalds for not maintaining civility... while insulting him ('being a douche'). You talk about being 'incapable of realising' - perhaps review your own comment.

I'm not chiding him. I'm describing him.

I don't have a problem with his attitude. I wouldn't like working with him, but I at least accept it.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#214

Post by phryk »

doctorfoo wrote: post #199
phryk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I…

Hacker News: Where IQ and intelligence trumps being pleasant. So many tech types are assholes.

If you meet me in real-life I'm pretty relaxed. I've even been called a pleasant person, too!

I'm just getting a bit jittery whenever someone tries to regulate free speech.

If you think I'm an asshole you are hereby invited to meet me at the OHM in a few weeks and yell at me. :)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#215

Post by djm_ »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #116
djm_ wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it. I feel sorry for her and you haven't even found her yet.

If you make a ridiculous decision and go all the way to implementation without thinking it through, you objectively should feel extremely dumb about it. That means the feedback loops in your brain are working correctly. I feel sorry for anyone who has a systemic inability to learn impulse control.

>you objectively should feel extremely dumb about it.

Precisely, but that is the for the person themselves to feel and not to be told. If you get off on telling people they are lesser beings than you then there is something intrinsically wrong with your impulse control; it's called learning, and the day the world makes that a shameful thing is the day we all return to the middle ages.

N.B, this was specifically related to he/she having to feel dumb for even thinking it. Doing something when you have no expertise in that field is an entirely different kettle of fish. It seems in this case he/she would have been insulted for contemplating the idea inside the boundaries of his/her own mind..

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#216

Post by DanBC »

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I agree with everything you say.

The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour.

Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#217

Post by officemonkey »

vacri wrote: post #191
rtpg wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't any form of criticism an insult? Plus we're talking about Torvald's attitude, hard to avoid personal attacks when we're talking about the person himself.

Not at all. Constructive criticism isn't insulting by definition. Calling someone a douche isn't constructive criticism. And there's a difference between attacking a person and attacking the actions - and look at what Torvalds does. Even his famous "shut the fuck up Mauro" comment is telling Mauro that his behaviour is inappropriate. He's not saying 'Mauro, you are a douche' directly insulting the guy, he's saying "I…

Calling someone a douche is constructive criticism. If I call you a douche, it means you're acting in self-centered, antagonistic manner that aggravating the relationship.

Of course some people don't care about that. People don't fix things they don't feel are broken.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#218

Post by sergiosgc »

doctorfoo wrote: post #199
phryk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I…

Hacker News: Where IQ and intelligence trumps being pleasant. So many tech types are assholes.

Pleasant ≠ profanity free. I identify fully with Linus' stance of profanity bursts followed by no-grudges held. A common professional profanity free, revenge backstabbing, work environment is much much more unpleasant.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#219

Post by phryk »

jwilliams wrote: post #197
phryk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I…

The OP was just commenting that they didn't find abuse and profanity productive. They didn't mention censoring anyone. They said it didn't work for them. Do you have one single way of expressing yourself? Do you use profanity 100% of the time? Do you automatically reject all feedback on how you express yourself? ... On how you write code? ... Or how you interact with your colleagues? Because, from your comment, that'…

They didn't mention censoring anyone.

True that, I will try to get a bit less triggerable about this.

Do you have one single way of expressing yourself? Do you use profanity 100% of the time? Do you automatically reject all feedback on how you express yourself? ... On how you write code? ... Or how you interact with your colleagues?

No, of course not. I have however come into contact with quite a few people who tried to censor me before, that might be the reason why I'm so easily "triggerable" with this.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#220

Post by CrLf »

jvdh wrote: post #148
temphn wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's very useful context. Sarah Sharp is not Linus. She doesn't get to to dictate the tone of the mailing list, and was obviously trying to publicly shame/attack Linus. One doesn't have to endorse Linus' management strategy to grant that (a) it works and (b) it works without Sarah Sharp's input.

The fact that it works does not mean that it can't be improved. And a context that scares people off is not one that I would say "works".

But it's debatable that it actually scares anyone off...

This is not about grinding newcomers to the LKML, this is about the type of communication between people that have known each other for quite some time, and are well aware of each other's technical "sensibilities".

True, the LKML is also known to be a bit harsh to newcomers. But only in a sense that newcomers are often unaware of the high technical standards that the kernel abides to, and often resent the level of criticism or suggestions for change that they receive.

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