Are coders worth it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are coders worth it?

#211

Post by mediaman » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:50 PM UTC

damoncali wrote: post #193

mediaman wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point. Because software has near-zero replication costs, the "manufacturing" process has no good analog for software industry. The manufacturing industry is supported by an army of engineers in a wide variety of specialties. In fact, manufacturing, in some ways, is starting to look a little more similar to software, because the non-material costs of production are falling (automation replaces direct l…

However, like a draftsperson or an engineer who refuses to learn Solidworks, the more powerful software will be a negative for those who cannot, or choose not to, evolve their skill set above a more basic level. That line jogged loose a memory that might cause some thought in other so I'll share: I used be an aerospace engineer. Typically, what we called * designers* were technical people who were very good at workin…

You bring up a good point, in that knowing the software is no substitute for intellectual comprehension of the problem. An extremely capable engineer using outdated technology will often outperform less capable engineers using more modern tools, especially when the problem or task is complex.

Even though the average engineer may be more productive with modern tools than the average engineer without them, there is danger in assuming that any engineer with modern tools will outperform any engineer with less modern tools. Just like software, tools can be an enabler, but they do not make the engineer a commodity.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#212

Post by nekopa » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:53 PM UTC

thedufer wrote: post #199

bokglobule wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer who also knows plumbing (and other trades), I'd beg to differ. When I talk to neighbors and friends, most of whom are highly "technical", they look at me in disbelief when I suggest they resolve a plumbing (or carpentry or mechanical) issue on their own. I get the "I have no idea where to start", or "I don't have any tools", and so on. It's not a lack of available information, it's the fear, in many ca…

Is this really the case? Growing up, my family did pretty much all of their own plumbing/carpentry/electrical work, so I'm kind of surprised that that's not the norm. Its honestly not that hard to figure out, and its also pretty easy to make sure that messing up doesn't do any long-term damage. The extreme of this was when we spent a year or so finishing our basement; everything from framing to wiring/plumbing to pai…

I think that you are not the norm. I feel that I am a pretty smart guy, and I know how to do good, in depth research on the Internet. But I have to say, I got a lot of cringing looks from my girlfriends family when they first saw me using a chainsaw with an iPad propped up next to me with instructions on proper chainsaw operation techniques display displayed next to me.

There is data, there is information, there is knowledge, there is experience. And then there is wisdom.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#213

Post by nekopa » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 7:02 PM UTC

bennyg wrote: post #206

nekopa wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how long will this idea of 'fusing thoughts and intellectual processes' remain the sole domain of humans? Besides from some creative leaps, a lot of this has to do with logic: knowing what works where and when. I'm working on an idea tied to literate programming where someone can tell a story of what they want a program to do, put it in a wiki, and then programmers can edit the wiki to add in the actual software…

That sounds awesome. I've dreamed of a context-aware, natural language programming language: Change value of potatoes to 10. (potatoes = 10). Make potatoes equal 10. (potatoes = 10). Give every person at the dinner table a potato. (for x = 0; x Etcetera.

But think about it this way:

So, I want to check my diary and see what I need to do today. Anything really important should flash, so I know I need to take care of that. But, I know that my boss is waiting for me to finish that puff piece on our new acquisition, so double flash that. Also let me know I need to buy cat food. Stat.

Make a program that can parse that piece of text and you're onto a winner. (I'm trying)

Re: Are coders worth it?

#214

Post by fizzbar » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 7:06 PM UTC

fxthea wrote: post #121

twistedpair wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so hard to distinguish the fine differences in quality which separate a remarkable piece of writing or photography from the mediocre I just paid several thousand dollars to a wedding photographer for my wedding. That is pretty standard from what people tell me. I wouldn't say that no one is willing to pay for content. It depends on the content.

I would argue that the premium you are paying for the wedding photos is attributed to the service rather than the content. You are paying several thousand dollars to a professional photographer rather than a hundred bucks to your nephew so that they do not mess up your special day. While I'm sure the photos are exquisite, no one else would pay several thousand dollars for the exact same photos you received.

No, but what matters to the photographer (our stand-in for software developer) is that there are many people willing to pay them several thousand dollars for those kinds of photos :)

Re: Are coders worth it?

#215

Post by notahacker » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 7:07 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #133

jacques_chester wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to save him some angst. Trying to reconcile the virtues of what he does with his economic value is pointless. They're just not connected. Demand for Ruby on Rails plumbing is ultimately connected with the current wishes and desires of most of the planet's population and has nothing whatsoever to do with how he, or anyone else, feels about it. In literary terms: he's tilting at windmills.

MOST of the planets population? Really? I think the actions or desires of most of the planets population, who don't have computers or internet-enabled phones, have virtually no impact on the market for rails developers.

That was my thought. Really it's the actions or desires of a small number of VCs with copycat investment strategies hoping to outperform VC as an asset class by backing a slightly different set of San Francisco startups working on a slightly different spin on social sharing that drives demand for developers in that particular corner of the world into the stratosphere. (The market for Rails developers in many other parts of the world is not that different from the market for other locally-based professionals with a skillset that can solve defined business problems, which is probably what their code is actually doing)

That said, the billion plus people that joined Facebook and click on Google ads have had a bit of an influence on why LPs from all over continue to pump money into Sand Hill Road VC funds...

Re: Are coders worth it?

#216

Post by PeterisP » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 7:17 PM UTC

nekopa wrote: post #192

bennyg wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure some parts of software will become manufactured and mass produced - I mean that's the case today. How many libraries do you use? However, software is still an intellectual, out of thin air, endeavor. It requires thought to create new and make work with existing circumstances. You aren't melting metal into a mold to make a tangible object. You are literally fusing thoughts and intellectual processes together to d…

But how long will this idea of 'fusing thoughts and intellectual processes' remain the sole domain of humans? Besides from some creative leaps, a lot of this has to do with logic: knowing what works where and when. I'm working on an idea tied to literate programming where someone can tell a story of what they want a program to do, put it in a wiki, and then programmers can edit the wiki to add in the actual software…

Or the software improvements will cross a boundary where we'll be able to mass-produce better thinkers than humans.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#217

Post by abhiv » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 7:19 PM UTC

Companies in Silicon Valley seem to approach interviews with the idea that the candidate is a blank slate. There isn't a lot of discussion about things you've done in the past; the general approach is to ask you to design for hypothetical scenarios, or to write code on the whiteboard for algorithmic problems.

The Silicon Valley approach seems to throw out a lot of good information that could indicate a candidate's quality by focusing only on the now, rather than any historical data. One of the reasons given for this is that a lot of people are good at talking about stuff when they haven't actually implemented anything, but it seems to me that an in-depth conversation about someone's background followed by coding exercises would provide a better indication of their quality than abstract questions in a vacuum.

I think another reason why interviewers don't ask a lot of questions about candidates' backgrounds is to avoid potentially hearing something that the candidate's previous employer might consider confidential information. This is a fair concern, but it does lead to what seems to me to be a sub-optimal evaluation process.

There also doesn't seem to be as much urgency to hire someone now as the author indicates -- companies can and do take time to schedule interviews and make up their mind. Perhaps it's different in NY.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#218

Post by tlrobinson » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 7:20 PM UTC

Man I hate the word "coder". It sounds so mechanical. I'm a programmer, hacker, developer, software engineer, but not a "coder".

Maybe the people who are handed down requirements and designs to implement with no room for creativity can be called "coders".

Re: Are coders worth it?

#219

Post by lucidrains » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 7:21 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #208

mark_l_watson wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 ""Software engineering has not yet gone through a true manufacturing disruption."" I keep expecting this to happen: the disruption. How much more productive is an engineer using something like Meteor compared to an equally talented engineer several years ago for building web apps where users interact (data wise) in some way. Same comment for Rails, even better IDEs, PAAS providers, libraries, etc. When I started p…

I think it's not that software engineering has not yet gone through a true manufacturing disruption, it's that each new disruption increases the scope of problems that software can be applied to rather than reducing the skill it takes to create it. The invention of compilers was a huge watershed moment for programming. All the manual labor you had to do, keeping track of memory layouts and registers and stack frames,…

you have basically summed up my worldview and outlook for the future in a few paragraphs. i look forward to a time when we automate everyone out of a job, and it will be a better future for all of us. i have to admit there may be industries on the horizon that may be beyond our comprehension, but it will no doubt require a symbiosis between man/machine.

i like your name too!

Re: Are coders worth it?

#220

Post by lucidrains » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 7:25 PM UTC

Yes, coders are worth it. I've personally seen medicine up close, and have friends in various industries ranging from law to business. Everything is shit compared to the value software engineers create. Anyways, I don't think people should get their egos wrapped up into their careers, life is more than that. But I wouldn't undervalue what you are doing.