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A Difficult Situation

blog.sendgrid.com

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Re: A Difficult Situation

#211

Post by davidroberts »

vivin wrote: post #107
nilkn wrote: post #26

Even if I agree with the decision, this is incredibly hard to read. I hate to see someone lose their job over something like this. Yet I can't disagree with anything he wrote. I personally hope she will learn from this and another company will give her a new chance. The odds of that are slim given how big this has become--it's front-paging repeatedly on HN and /r/programming. But I'd hate to see her whole career ruin…

She was vociferously unapologetic. She firmly believed that she was in the right, and even worse, that she was on some sort of gender-equality "crusade". The hubris is palpable when you see the comments she made in her post, where she said things like "Yesterday the future of programming was on the line and I made myself heard.", and even compared herself to Joan of Arc ( http://i.imgur.com/JnZLsju.jpg ). Even worse,…

The hubris is palpable.. I think you have expressed the core of the problem here. Her tweets and her comments afterwards seem to be so much more about confirming her self image as a hero than about any constructive effort to promote the welfare of women in technology.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#212

Post by taligent »

seivan wrote: post #150
powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

Exactly, just two guys making forking jokes (get it?). Even Github sells merch with the words "Fork you". Zealous oversensitive jaded person like her, taking her time to get the phone out, take a picture, possible geo-tagged of two guys who might not want to be on her Twitter. She has no right to do that. Especially when there was no communication between them. You don't like their jokes, tell them or move away. Look…

> People like that are hard to be around, constantly tip toe.

It really isn't.

Most of us that actually work in a professional environment aren't making crude jokes about sexual topics. And we sure as hell are on our best behaviour at offsite events. Clearly this is a foreign concept to you.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#213

Post by arrrg »

Yver wrote: post #178
arrrg wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with you that the statement also named that as a reason for firing her. All I’m saying that if the DDoS played any part in their decision to fire her, then that part of the justification for their decision represents immoral cowardice to me.

named that? Which part? I think you're perceiving things that are not there.

I quoted the segment where I think the statement makes reference to the DDoS.

It is open to interpretation, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable interpretation.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#214

Post by _delirium »

gregd wrote: post #202
_delirium wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you fire someone for being the victim of a crime? They clearly fired her here in response to a DDoS. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if shitty American employment law permits it, but it's not ethical on the employer's part.

They fired her because she could no longer be effective in the position they hired her for.

That's the official line, but I don't believe it.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#215

Post by powertower »

shantanubala wrote: post #168
powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

> http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c This is an excellent example of why you should never use Twitter to have a nuanced discussion. It depends on your definition of racism, and most scholarly definitions are "power and prejudice." In other words, a white person who is in the majority has more power than a black person (think Silicon Valley[1]), so the actual impact of the prejudice has a greater magnitude that turns it into "r…

> It depends on your definition of racism

racism - dictionary

1.The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

2.Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

This is the original definition of the word - 1 year ago, 10 years ago, 100 years ago, 500 years ago.

The redefinition of racism is merely a fabrication meant to suit someone elses particular agenda, or to get you to submit to their particular argument or point-of-view.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#216

Post by milesf »

FTA: "Publicly shaming the offenders – and bystanders – was not the appropriate way to handle the situation."

So you publicly fire your employee? You hypocrites!

If an employer decides it's necessary to let someone go because of a debacle like what's happened here, that's fine. But let the person go with dignity and respect, even if the person doesn't deserve it. If you publicly throw your employees under the bus, what does that say to your remaining employees?

All of us, and I mean ALL OF US have made mistakes like what Adria and Mr. Hank have done. But after the firestorm has died down and we're on to some other inane drama on the internet, these two people will be left struggling to make sense of why they were fired in such a publicly shaming way.

What a horrible mess.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#217

Post by [deleted] »

incongruity wrote: post #160
eridius wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can people please stop bringing up that tweet? It has absolutely nothing to do with what happened at PyCon. Whatever she says on her own personal twitter feed is wholly unrelated to what happens at a professional event. Especially since the only people who see her tweet are people that have explicitly chosen to do so (either by following her or by following someone's link to it). What is acceptable in an opt-in scena…

>Whatever she says on her own personal twitter feed is wholly unrelated to what happens at a professional event. Except: A) She posted the picture in question on that twitter feed and B) She identifies herself as affiliated with her (former) employer at the top of that feed/in her profile. To me, those make her "personal" feed not so personal and wholly germane to this conversation.

[deleted]

Re: A Difficult Situation

#218

Post by gregd »

brennenHN wrote: post #184

My email to Jim Franklin: Hi Jim, You have a mess on your hands, and I understand how hard it must be at SendGrid today. I think you've made a defensible move, and it is hard to hold you in contempt for putting your employees and business first. That said, I'm really disappointed in your response. For as long as there have been tech conferences, they have been hostile to women. Sexually exclusive language is the star…

All she did was report factual discomfort publicly. She didn't lie or slander.

What she tweeted about was subjective discomfort, not factual. So all of the men in her tweeted photo, she didn't lie or slander?

Re: A Difficult Situation

#219

Post by courtewing »

_delirium wrote: post #182
courtewing wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in particular do you think makes them vulnerable to a lawsuit? I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that in the US, it is legal to fire most non-contract employees at any time, without any notice, and for pretty much any reason (or even lack of a reason) other than outright discrimination based on nationality/gender/religion/etc. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment and specifically the "Sta…

Can you fire someone for being the victim of a crime? They clearly fired her here in response to a DDoS. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if shitty American employment law permits it, but it's not ethical on the employer's part.

Yes.

Edit: Especially given my short response, I think it is important to reiterate how much I am not a lawyer.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#220

Post by azov »

eridius wrote: post #147
powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

Can people please stop bringing up that tweet? It has absolutely nothing to do with what happened at PyCon. Whatever she says on her own personal twitter feed is wholly unrelated to what happens at a professional event. Especially since the only people who see her tweet are people that have explicitly chosen to do so (either by following her or by following someone's link to it). What is acceptable in an opt-in scena…

That tweet is definitely relevant.

The whole point is we're trying to protect people from offensive behavior. The definition of what's offensive is vague at best. Common approach - if someone was offended, it's offensive - assumes that we trust victims accounts that they were in fact offended.

While context is important, it is much harder to believe that someone would be seriously offended by a joke when they make the same kind of a joke themselves. That's why the tweet is relevant.

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