Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure if just trolling, but if not it seems you're not very experienced yet in the use of the tools of the trade of the professional programmer. The point of using the vi interface is nowadays (and yes I know about the original reasons of the modal workings of vi...) that moving your fingers off the home row takes too much effort, let alone having to move your hand to the mouse. It's easier to drive an automatic,…
I'm not sure if he's trolling or not either. But since he wrote the original "Apple Writer", (see http://www.arachnoid.com/administration/index.html ) It seems likely that he knows something about the tools of a professional programmer.
Vim users: stop using hjkl
211–218 of 218 posts
Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm glad you like your modern editors (there's lots there to love), but they are not inherently better than vim just because they're non-modal. Yes, in point of fact, they are better than vi/vim because they are non-modal. When all is said and done, dropping vi's modes makes an editor better and more efficient. > Like delete the next four words? How do I do that in a modern editor with a single keystroke? You can't…
You were the one who claimed all the multi-keystroke shortcuts were possible in one keystroke, not falcolas. Plenty of us switched to vim after using mouse-oriented editors for years or decades. Why are you so offended that we have different preferences than you?
The number of keystrokes used is irrelevant because this is the optimal generalization of how to perform an action on some text. As in I could turn my screen off, open this file, perform the action an save the file and be sure of the result. So I could map a single key delete four words in vim, but why would anyone do that? It's easier to think "I want to delete four words" and have my fingers do that from muscle memory. That's exactly what it feels like to use ci" when I want to "change inside double quotes" - I tell my editor what I want to do and it moves the cursor for me without needing to peck at the arrow keys N times.
I decided to accept nothing less than tools that are reliable and work exactly the same way every day until I want to change something. I don't care about following someone else's idea of what features or keybindings should be in my text editor; instead I started from a blank slate and added what I wanted. This has the side effect of making it incredibly obvious when I change something that causes the editor to behave in a way that I don't expect or to slow down.
Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm glad you like your modern editors (there's lots there to love), but they are not inherently better than vim just because they're non-modal. Yes, in point of fact, they are better than vi/vim because they are non-modal. When all is said and done, dropping vi's modes makes an editor better and more efficient. > Like delete the next four words? How do I do that in a modern editor with a single keystroke? You can't…
You were the one who claimed all the multi-keystroke shortcuts were possible in one keystroke, not falcolas. Plenty of us switched to vim after using mouse-oriented editors for years or decades. Why are you so offended that we have different preferences than you?
Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oooh. I'd love to hear those many more efficient options!
> I'd love to hear those many more efficient options! This may come as a surprise, but modern programming editors don't require the operator to switch between three mutually exclusive modes -- insert, delete and navigate. That's because modern keyboards have keys dedicated to those purposes, which means the operator doesn't have to either wonder which mode he is in, or switch modes, which saves an enormous amount of…
Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl
#215Hard mode, that's great. Does vim have a help-a-fellow-learn-vim mode? Instead of it's normal Mostly-fail-to-give-you-any-visual-feedback-and-just-treat-you-with-smug-indifference-while-you-try-various-keys mode?
Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is a mouse more efficient than an ability to move to a phrase with a bit of typing, skip words ahead with a single letter instead of ctrl + shift, move to a new line and a specific place on that line with a couple of button presses, etc?
> How is a mouse more efficient than an ability to move to a phrase with a bit of typing, skip words ahead with a single letter instead of ctrl + shift, move to a new line and a specific place on that line with a couple of button presses, etc? I can't improve on your explanation as the answer to your own question. Obviously using a mouse to cut/copy and paste, within the same document or between independent documents…
You may personally believe this strongly, but it's most certainly not "obvious"...
In reality, as is usually the case, it depends very much on the details of what's being done. Some cases are faster with a mouse, others with well-designed keyboard commands.
[Which is why good editors support both styles of interaction...]
Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pro tip: don't downvote a correspondent from whom you also expect a reply.
If you check my profile, you'll see that I have less than 500 karma and therefore could not have downvoted you. edit: wording/lower verbosity edit: typo
Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Not sure if just trolling, but if not it seems you're not very experienced yet in the use of the tools of the trade of the professional programmer. [emphasis added] Guess again -- I wrote Apple Writer in the late 1970s ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Writer ). One of my goals was to eliminate the modes that plagued contemporary editors and attract people interested in ease of use and efficiency. Apple Writer b…
I am so glad to see someone else with perspective at least make their voice heard. This vim thing is absolute lunacy. I was booting machines from scratch thirty years ago with Forth and writing my own text editors to be able to program the machine. I used crippled keyboards without mice, function keys and cursor buttons. And I gladly said goodbye to that crap years ago. Then you come to a place like HN and you have "…
So, if someone people enjoy vim, celebrate them. Same goes for whatever you use.
I do agree that the assumption that nothing can exist beyond how one sees things possibly ever being right being the realer and bigger problem.