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Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

johannakoll.posterous.com

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Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#211

Post by dradtke »

klodolph wrote: post #171

These threads are among the lowest-quality on Hacker News. Everyone has an opinion on sex, and therefore sexism. Let's cover some of the tired old ground: 1. "Jokes are not discrimination." I hate to tell you this, but tasteless jokes are part of the problem. People absorb and internalize their environment. Maybe if I phrase it this way: Why is it that you bombard kids with pictures of women in bikinis and men in lab…

I don't claim to speak for everyone, but discussions like this feel counter-productive because there's nothing to really say, and no amount of text is going to accurately portray another person's experiences. At this point, these posts are effectively just someone standing up and shouting "hey, there's some more sexism over here!" So what? Go confront the people that matter, like the people the original post is targeting. Sure, it's worth sharing so that we remain somewhat up-to-date on what's going on in the industry, but there's not much meaningful discussion to be had.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#212

Post by halostatue »

sgt wrote: post #33
flexie wrote: post #7

People laugh when they hear a "sexist" joke because it's funny. Maybe gender related jokes don't have a place at conferences and work places - I am not sure - but there should be room for jokes about genders somewhere, right? I mean, where does this political correctness stop?

It's human, politically incorrect jokes are just a part of who we are. This lady is just really up-tight and probably not very pleasant to be around, and I'm sure if you stuck a lump of coal in a particular location, in two weeks you'd have a diamond.

Thank you so very much for proving her point that there are a lot of sexist pigs in our industry, and that you're one of them.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#213

Post by coldtea »

klodolph wrote: post #200
coldtea wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never understood why "political correctness" has to be political. Almost all of the words that aren't PC, are must more entrenched in the social, societal sphere than in politics. It's not about "politics" as in the narrow sphere of political affairs (democrats, republicans, voting etc). It's about "political" in the wider sense (that is "trying to be tactful", not to annoy various sides, etc).

> It's about "political" in the wider sense (that is "trying to be tactful", not to annoy various sides, etc). No, that's a false etymology. The term "politically correct" in its modern usage came from leftist movements in the 70s to describe politics (not in the broad sense of "tact"). Think of it as a synonym for "ideologically sound". The civil rights movement was definitely about politics, not tact. The term "pol…

>No, that's a false etymology.

It's not about etymology. It's about usage. The term has a long history and differing uses. The etymology does not matter (it rarely does, and if it does it's mostly for historical reasons).

It's the use of the word that matters.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#214

Post by halostatue »

oellegaard wrote: post #44

Showing a woman (or a man) in underwear is not sexism. It is btw equally funny no matter what gender it is. The logic applied in this article is equal to saying that it is racist to display a white man on your presentation, because then you are obviously promoting racism. Now, I completely agree that sexism is a bad thing - but come on, this is not really sexism.

Unless you're selling underwear or sex…it is. You should carefully consider whether {sex,gender,race,religion,politics,…} is germane to the discussion that you're trying to engender with your presentation.

If you're a fashion designer talking about your latest underwear fashion? Go for it. If you're presenting about gender issues? Go for it—but be careful that your slide materials don't undermine the message. If you're talking about a web API? You've got to be kidding me if you ever think that such a thing is ever appropriate.

No one is saying that you can't have fun with your presentation slide deck—one of my favourite slides that I ever made was a for a RubyConf (San Diego, I believe) where I was talking about how to use PDF::Writer for presentations…and I presented the following code:

    def takahashi
      # ...
    end
The response I got from the audience was worth it—and it was completely appropriate (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takahashi_method for why).

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#215

Post by rmc »

jonnathanson wrote: post #192
klodolph wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone told me once that a contributing factor to the "jewish lawyer stereotype" was caused by law firms who discriminated against jews — who then started up their own law firms, and outcompeted all the other law firms because it's easier to find talent if you don't discriminate. The Harlem Globetrotters picked the best of the african-american basketball players, who were not welcome on other teams. The result was p…

I've heard that story as well. Same thing happened with investment banks. Legend has it that Goldman Sachs was started because Marcus Goldman and Samuel Sachs couldn't get jobs at WASPy firms. The other side of the coin is that the white-shoe firms didn't touch certain types of businesses (like M&A or IPOs) because those businesses were considered "ungentlemanly." So they were left to the Jewish firms, who developed…

Some countries even mandated that Christians couldn't engage in such businesses.

Or that Jews couldn't take up other professions.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#216

Post by halostatue »

klodolph wrote: post #207
jimzvz wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suppose for a moment that you are a guy who just graduated from college, make $20,000 a year in your dream internship, and are on the long trek to success in your field. You're in a new city, and don't know many people. You're constantly bombarded with pictures of men who "made it", have $200k cars, wear $10k suits, drink $500 bottles of liquor, and buy their mistresses $80k pieces of jewelry. Now I'm going to kick…

Funny how I agree with lots of what you say but the conclusion is wrong. Yes, there are lots of ways in which men are discriminated against. No, it is still not okay to show pictures of women in underwear at conferences. Yes, showing such pictures makes you a sexist pig. The reason I said "alternate reality" was because the quote about "six figures" was a complete fabrication, based on something a man actually said t…

Always appropriate: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#217

Post by [deleted] »

dasil003 wrote: post #41
flexie wrote: post #7

People laugh when they hear a "sexist" joke because it's funny. Maybe gender related jokes don't have a place at conferences and work places - I am not sure - but there should be room for jokes about genders somewhere, right? I mean, where does this political correctness stop?

Or because it makes them uncomfortable. But in any case, yes, it's true you can make a joke about anything. George Carlin famously proved this with a rape joke. George Carlin was also one of the most brilliant comedians ever to live so he could pull it off. The simple fact is that "jokes" which reinforce current power structure are not good jokes. As a man you don't get to decide how women should feel about scantily…

[deleted]

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#218

Post by jimzvz »

klodolph wrote: post #207
jimzvz wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suppose for a moment that you are a guy who just graduated from college, make $20,000 a year in your dream internship, and are on the long trek to success in your field. You're in a new city, and don't know many people. You're constantly bombarded with pictures of men who "made it", have $200k cars, wear $10k suits, drink $500 bottles of liquor, and buy their mistresses $80k pieces of jewelry. Now I'm going to kick…

Funny how I agree with lots of what you say but the conclusion is wrong. Yes, there are lots of ways in which men are discriminated against. No, it is still not okay to show pictures of women in underwear at conferences. Yes, showing such pictures makes you a sexist pig. The reason I said "alternate reality" was because the quote about "six figures" was a complete fabrication, based on something a man actually said t…

My post was kind of off topic actually. The point was that it is frustrating that this kind of thing is seen as an issue but sexism against men is ignored or claimed not to exist and if you do bring it up, you are labeled as a misogynist.

Regarding the actual issue, I agree with you that it is not okay to show women(or men) in underwear at a tech conference in most cases but I am not sure if it was sexist or not because I was no there and didn't see the presentation. I don't think that this kind of thing has any place in a professional environment under normal circumstances though.

edit: My point proven by halostatue. Who is hinting that just because I am a man, I have no right to complain because everything comes so easy to me despite him having no knowledge of my particular circumstances.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#219

Post by mistercow »

9392732 wrote: post #206
king_jester wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When white people are enslaved, removed from their native homeland, and used as a primary economic engine for another race for ~300 years, then we can start talking about outrage over the treatment white people get.

Like the Slavs? A group that spawned the word slave? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade Now, start your talk please

So you think that the "stuff white people like" meme finds its roots in prejudices arising from the Arab slave trade in the 9th century?

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#220

Post by PeterisP »

mcherm wrote: post #38
flexie wrote: post #7

People laugh when they hear a "sexist" joke because it's funny. Maybe gender related jokes don't have a place at conferences and work places - I am not sure - but there should be room for jokes about genders somewhere, right? I mean, where does this political correctness stop?

> where does this political correctness stop? Can I turn that around? Can I instead answer "When should the jokes about gender stop?" They should stop when they begin to offend someone or to marginalize them. Now, when hanging out with a couple of your friends, you probably have the social skills, the ability to discern body language to be able to tell when someone gets offended and back off. Or maybe you don't: mayb…

Jokes shouldn't stop because they offend someone.

You should be allowed (both legally and morally) to make crude fun of leaders and politicians, including the leader of your country and leaders of companies, parties and NGOs.

You should be allowed (both legally and morally) to make crude fun of people's habits, including the current religious practices of your country or other peoples.

These are important core freedoms to have - but these already offend some people SO much, up to and including murder, that the other sensitive topics (racism,sexism,etc) pale in comparison.

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