No.
GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
211–220 of 510 posts
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
Windows did both successfully.
I can't remember an example that didn't also include the shortcut written in full, but I might just be drawing a blank here. Care to give an example?
Wasn't easy to find!
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#213Well said. Now I just need a universal way to maintain consistency of my F-keys across all applications, including various browsers.
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Normally you press tab to move between widgets. I guess he means if the tab order hasn't been set up properly.
It's been a while since I've done actual development, but determining tabindex ordering was a very big deal in the early 2000s when clerks/admins were moving from legacy systems to the web. They did most of their jobs with a keyboard, and if you set up tabindexing so that they can use a keyboard for 90% of their job then they would fly through tasks. If you didn't then you'd have some very angry clients at the end of…
I worked on an accounting application once. We had the proper tab order written down on paper docs and checked/updated it regularly.
We would have been murdered by at least the point of sale people otherwise :)
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#215It used to annoy me that on Windows I could press ENTER to close a message box, but on Mac I had to reach for the mouse.
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#216"Just as it should be possible to perform every action with a pointing device, every action should also be possible with the keyboard."
"It should be possible to move around and interact with every part of your user interface using the keyboard."
Yes, finally. It works both ways; when I have hold of the mouse, I don't want to reach for the keyboard, and vice versa. Windows has had this problem for ages, and probably always will. There are some workarounds, "ctrl-esc" (I do this all the time) and "windows-button", but some of them require really jumping through hoops.
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#217What does it mean though for a GUI to be keyboard-driven? The obvious way is that every action simply gets a shortcut assigned. My counter would be that that is not really keyboard-driven, but merely keyboard-compatible.There is the issue of discoverability. The best practice right now seems to display the shortcuts of buttons in tooltips, menu items, or when pressing a different shortcut. I’d content that buttons ar…
We know what it means for a GUI to be keyboard driven now:
Edit with Copilot[1]
Press the Copilot key on your keyboard[2] and type the thing you want to happen on your keyboard in English without leaving the home row. Forget the keyboard shortcuts, the path through the menus, the button location in the toolbar, the command name in the omnibar, the marketing name of the feature. Forget queueing up keyboard keys in an input buffer based on memorising which dialog will popup next, or the tab ordering on this or that screen. DWIM is back, and this time it still isn't determinstic, but it's the way we are going to manage ever-growing software features and task complexity and finally turn computing declarative instead of imperative.
"Move rows with dates from 2020 to the bottom of the table"
"Change the date format in the table from mm/dd/yyyy to yyyy-MM like 2026-Aug"
"Style the table with alternating dark/pale contrasting colour backgrounds and a different header row colour"
[1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/word/edit-with-copilot-i...
[2] https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/01/04/intro...
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#218I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…
I had to keep accessibility in mind a lot in my previous job (web development for a university). The thing that I consistently found was that, the more accessible a website was, the better the experience for everyone , not just people with disabilities.
I 100% agree. I've been working on a component library rebuild at work and accessibility is a key focus, granted I don't think that would be the case if some of our contracts didn't mandate it but it's fiiiiiine
I'm someone who enjoys this kind of work, especially when the target is a stylized drop down - I got to spend a week with the MDN page for the ARIA combobox open, trudging through all of the ins and outs of keyboard accessibility and I know I'm still missing a couple things (typing when the control is focused but not open, for example), and having clearly defined specs is something we don't seem to get a lot in webdev
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#219Power user experience is not the same thing as user experience in general. If you want to make the argument that all developer tooling should be keyboard-driven, fine, be my guest. But most people aren't willing to deal with the learning curve of keyboard-driven GUIs, and that's okay. We shouldn't force it. HN's insistence on acting like all users are Arch Linux efficiency perfectionist hacker types is painfully corn…
Where this falls apart is commercial software. The issue is we use off-the-shelf frameworks and tools for commercial software. And then we don't train developers on how to write high-volume software. Commercial software is THE power user use case. Your users will be using your software 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for years. And still, the software is obtuse point-and-click garbage. Meanwhile commercial software fro…
> UI constantly shuffling around between updates.
and then 365 came along ... an option to pull stock market data here, a LinkedIn connection there, oh look a wild copilot button appeared.
Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven
#220Keyboard driven is fine, when you have a keyboard. But many users are now on phones or tablets, with a severely limited keyboard that takes a big part of the screen. But they have a variety of gestures that regular desktop machines don't have. A good UI should happily handle both of these extremes, and everything in between.