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Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

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Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#211

Post by a-priori »

dwoldrich wrote: post #35

I cannot figure out if this data center panic is legit or trumped up. There are legitimate nation-state and political entities that would love to create pressure for degrowth in this area. And, pollution and natural resources are a concern, yes, fine, sure. NIMBY happens, I get it ... *BUT*, we've been building huge data centers for decades and they are minuscule compared to the size of the earth. My skeptic meter ma…

As measured by power consumption, the scale of data centres is a lot bigger now than they used to be. A typical large data centre is on the order of several hundred megawatts sustained consumption, up to a gigawatt on the high end for planned facilities. The economic pressures are entirely in favour of building larger because of latency and also permitting (one large facility is still just one facility to get through zoning), so we should expect the size to only be constrained by external factors like availability of land, energy and water.

This energy is all turned into heat, which means a 1GW data centre facility will dump 1GW of heat energy into the environment, into some combination of air, water and ground. For comparison, the average energy use for the whole city of Toronto, Canada, is 2.7GW, so just three large data centres has roughly the same heating impact as all the air conditioners, baseboard heaters, toasters and ovens of a large city.

That's a lot of energy to dissipate in a small area, so it should absolutely not be surprising that it'll create a local heat island downwind or downstream in the same way cities do.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#212

Post by thegrim33 »

If even on Hacker News a topic like this can't be objectively discussed, what hope do we really have? What is the solution? Even in a place like this, the comments are full of extremist ideology, bickering, people arguing from feelings, people just repeating echo chambers mantras, and a significant portion of the comments are probably from inauthentic/propaganda accounts. We're incapable of just using a place like this to objectively, dispassionately, discus the facts/data and properly debate the various analyses of those facts.

I really feel like we need some sort of new revolution in terms of online communication, how it's done. How people share information and communicate. I just don't see how the current systems can continue existing without leading to societal disaster.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#213

Post by gosub100 »

jack_h wrote: post #96
compass_copium wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a hobbyist IT enthusiast, not a professional computer guy, but from my point of view there's a big difference between a bunch of servers hosting something people want, like Netflix, and a warehouse full of GPUs running around the clock to make Lobster Jesus or whatever. It's also a proxy for people's feelings on AI--essentially the only way people have to fight back against the new technology that makes eternal g…

How is there a big difference between those two things? People want Netflix, people also want the output of AI whether that is lobster Jesus or something else. This seems more like substituting what people want, which clearly includes AI, for what some people think others should want. I can guarantee you there are people who don’t want Netflix and think it’s a waste of resources that encourage people to binge TV, bec…

The point is they don't use nearly the same amount of energy.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#214

Post by [deleted] »

stryan wrote: post #178
qarl2 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they generally provide minimal benefits to the local communities Data centers pay Loudoun County, Virginia $26 in taxes for every $1 in services they consume - nearly $1.3 billion, 45% of the county's budget - which is why Loudoun homeowners pay the lowest property tax rate in Northern Virginia. https://www.loudoun.gov/faq.aspx?TID=241

Loudoun County is a very rich part of NOVA and was able to fight for those concessions, as well as being in a very desirable part of the country for those DC's to built in (close to major infrastructure but still undeveloped at the time) so they had a better position to argue from. Plus, as I mentioned in another comment, while Loundoun County gets the tax benefits the whole area is affected by the DC's power consump…

[deleted]

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#215

Post by cryzinger »

api wrote: post #62
dwoldrich wrote: post #35

I cannot figure out if this data center panic is legit or trumped up. There are legitimate nation-state and political entities that would love to create pressure for degrowth in this area. And, pollution and natural resources are a concern, yes, fine, sure. NIMBY happens, I get it ... *BUT*, we've been building huge data centers for decades and they are minuscule compared to the size of the earth. My skeptic meter ma…

I've done a bit of research into it, and I think it's a mix. The energy thing is exaggerated. Want to compensate for a week of heavy AI coding usage? If you drive to work, telecommute for one day. Skip one long-distance DoorDash order. Cars use tons of energy, a lot more per-user than the fraction of data center capacity you're using with your AI stuff. A burrito on DoorDash delivered using an average MPG gas car use…

> I am a little puzzled though by where these things are being built. Phoenix? Other than cheap solar power I can't tell why you'd want a data center there given the energy needed for cooling.

Not Phoenix, but I learned an interesting fact about some of the huge data centers in Las Vegas, which pre-date AI: since it's 72 degrees or cooler for more than 70% of the year, during those months they can just pipe in outside air without needing to cool it first.

On top of that, I think both Phoenix and Vegas have fewer natural disasters than other major metro areas.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#216

Post by AnthonyMouse »

jmmcd wrote: post #159
kennywinker wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eating meat fills my belly. Setting my AC to 68 keeps me cool. A data center costs my community money, damages the environment directly and indirectly, and further enriches a few already rich people. Can you spot the difference?

AC at 68F is obnoxious and wasteful. At least data centres enable me to communicate with distant colleagues, watch enriching movies, and use very strong AI tools to accelerate my research.

> AC at 68F is obnoxious and wasteful.

It's actually significantly more environmentally friendly than heating to above 68F in the winter in most cases, since most AC is done with heat pumps but most heating is oil/gas (100% fossil fuel consumption) or resistive electric heaters (dramatically less efficient than heat pumps). On top of that AC use aligns strongly with solar generation output while heating load does the opposite, which means that even when heating is done with electricity it comes disproportionately from gas turbines at natural gas peaker plants.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#217

Post by otterley »

ndriscoll wrote: post #70
metalsiliconYT wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has ever built a full datacenter in someones backyard...

The referenced 169 MW location is literally across the street from a residential neighborhood, where the article indicates they measured temperature differences[0]. > This gap is significant because many facilities are sited adjacent to residential neighborhoods (Fig. 1), and their air-cooled condenser arrays discharge air at temperatures 8–14 °C above ambient—often exceeding 50 °C during Phoenix summers—with air vel…

I wonder why the local government allowed it to be built without a buffer zone.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#218

Post by nitwit005 »

bdcravens wrote: post #52

If only we had the same amount of concern about oil refineries and gas stations. https://environmentalintegrity.org/news/13-oil-refineries-in... https://www.theenergymix.com/gas-stations-leave-behind-toxic...

The environmental concerns around oil refineries are a huge barrier to construction across much of the world.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#219

Post by atmavatar »

jmmcd wrote: post #159
kennywinker wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eating meat fills my belly. Setting my AC to 68 keeps me cool. A data center costs my community money, damages the environment directly and indirectly, and further enriches a few already rich people. Can you spot the difference?

AC at 68F is obnoxious and wasteful. At least data centres enable me to communicate with distant colleagues, watch enriching movies, and use very strong AI tools to accelerate my research.

Data centers also enable the NSA to store the metadata and contents of every phone call you make and police to (without a warrant) to track anyone who's walked in front of your doorbell or many street corners in your city. They also store all the location data your phone collects for Google or Apple, nearly your entire internet history collected surreptitiously because many sites automatically use your GMail or Facebook logins, and your entire purchase history collected via Visa or MasterCard.

And even better: all of that data is aggregated together and stored in its entirety several times over across multiple data centers because everyone shares your data with everyone else, such that if any single of more than a dozen data centers is ever compromised, it all gets leaked to whomever compromised it.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#220

Post by Lord-Jobo »

bdcravens wrote: post #52

If only we had the same amount of concern about oil refineries and gas stations. https://environmentalintegrity.org/news/13-oil-refineries-in... https://www.theenergymix.com/gas-stations-leave-behind-toxic...

The group trying to do that got voted out of all majorities of power
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