Earlier quoted context omitted.
More south than east. It conquered part of the Arabian peninsula. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksumite_Empire
It more or less bordered or was really close to Egypt, and it was on the very coastal edge of the African continent, as close as is possible to the Arabian Peninsula, and even conquered territory outside Africa. And if the conquered parts are included, it was somewhat east as well at the very least. Did it only conquer in that direction? There are the Adwa mountains (and even the active stratovolcano Adwa), somewhat…
Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
211–220 of 222 posts
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whilst being aware that the civilization in question ended significantly before European arrival in South America, I have two questions that hopefully someone smart here can help with: 1. The spread of disease (smallpox specifically) being fast enough that most European sources describe a relatively uninhabited Amazon strikes me as potentially interesting. This means that contact and trade was happening between local…
Between the Mason-Dixon line and the opposite latitude in Brazil it was more Malaria, Yellow Fever, and other mosquito born diseases rather than smallpox that did most of the killing. Malaria alone is responsible for about 5% of all human deaths through history, compared to something like 1% for smallpox.
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Amazon is different beast, humidity, insect fast growing plants. It is nasure on hyperdrive. I wouldn't be surprised if things took 5-10 times faster than england. Or any more dry european places.
Brasil has tried building a highway to Manaus like twice and each time the interior has eaten it. That's with relatively modern tools.
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Europeans didn't really get to most of the more isolated inland areas in the Americas until the 1600s or well after that, though.
>Europeans didn't really get to most of the more isolated inland areas in the Americas until the 1600s or well after that, though. It takes more than a few decades for things to regrow. There's a reason that half of all towns in New England have the name "field" in them. The impenetrable thicket that characterizes unmaintained New England land would have been foreign to literally every human to ever set foot there pr…
Of course probably it took quite a bit more for it to reach the Amazon but it's not like Europeans were that familiar or explore the region that much until the 1800s or so.
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's mistaking correlation for causation. I don't have proof, but let's consider an alternative: that the climate change that made those areas newly-hospitable to humans made them inhospitable to megafauna. Can you falsify "all of the species were subject to the same environmental shift" before you jump to "arriving humans hunted them all to extinction"? (And I recognize the parallels to some unsavory arguments, an…
I think if you consider that single instance it is mistaking correlation for causation. However, it happens every time, with a lag. In different climates and environments. When humans expanded out of Africa, spread out over Eurasia, reached North America, South America, Australia, new Zealand extinction of megafauna always followed. We know that there was large scale hunting and humans are highly effective hunters. H…
There are two problems here:
1) It hasn't actually happened every time. Elephants, hippopotamuses, large whales, polar bears, grizzly brown bears, certain large bovines, and moose still exist.
2) Extinctions of megafauna are distributed across a time delta from human arrival. I don't know for sure, but I would wager that that delta doesn't necessarily correlate with date (as a proxy for technological development).
That is to say, "humans arrive -> everything big dies" is not so cut-and-dry a rule. It should be clear that other factors are involved.
I'll suggest a third option: humans hunt megafauna to extinction in the presence of conditions that favor such behavior - perhaps climatic, geographic, and/or cultural. So, it happens. But it doesn't always happen.
For the purposes of this conversation, I don't think you've proven the original contention wrong, which was that indigenous people in the Americas found a niche which made their presence and behavior sustainable over long periods of time. If your evidence is the total extinction of American megafauna, then you would be forced to admit that you were incorrect. In fact, you potentially argue for the opposite: in clearing some megafauna but sparing others, humans did indeed carve out a potentially sustainable ecological niche, which their continued presence helps to prove was sustainable. At least, until culturally disparate humans arrived.
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's mistaking correlation for causation. I don't have proof, but let's consider an alternative: that the climate change that made those areas newly-hospitable to humans made them inhospitable to megafauna. Can you falsify "all of the species were subject to the same environmental shift" before you jump to "arriving humans hunted them all to extinction"? (And I recognize the parallels to some unsavory arguments, an…
> That's mistaking correlation for causation. I made no such mistake. Though, I was not aware of there being competing theories regarding the significant number of extinct megafauna species around the gross time interval of the arrival of Aboriginals to Australia and Tasmania, my apologies. There are two competing set of theories, namely human-caused ones and natural-climate-caused ones, as far as I can tell. I was o…
>The extinction of all moa species occurred relatively swiftly, between 1380 and 1440, making it one of the most rapid extinctions in history. Contributing factors included habitat destruction through woodland burning, the introduction of non-native predators such as dogs and rats, and the birds' natural life cycle, which featured low egg production.
It's not a good example to use to prove your contention, because it's an outlier, and because it involved the use of technology that wasn't necessarily available to other incidences of megafauna extinction.
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
I'm not a moderator, but this is not the way to engage here, and your profile seems to have a lot of the same. You should peruse the comments section of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html or at least try and bring a little more effort to the conversation. You can make the same point in a way that adds light rather than heat.
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think if you consider that single instance it is mistaking correlation for causation. However, it happens every time, with a lag. In different climates and environments. When humans expanded out of Africa, spread out over Eurasia, reached North America, South America, Australia, new Zealand extinction of megafauna always followed. We know that there was large scale hunting and humans are highly effective hunters. H…
It's still mistaking correlation for causation, even when considering multiple instances, if you can't describe an unfalsifiable mechanic as the cause. There are two problems here: 1) It hasn't actually happened every time. Elephants, hippopotamuses, large whales, polar bears, grizzly brown bears, certain large bovines, and moose still exist. 2) Extinctions of megafauna are distributed across a time delta from human…
> If your evidence is the total extinction of American megafauna
The evidence is the extinction of most American megafauna species.
> In fact, you potentially argue for the opposite: in clearing some megafauna but sparing others, humans did indeed carve out a potentially sustainable ecological niche, which their continued presence helps to prove was sustainable.
Humans have continued to survive everywhere, so that is evidence the the presence of humans everywhere has been sustainable.
The comment making the claim about indigenous societies in the Americas is that they are "ecologically compatible". They are compatible with an ecology they altered. This is, again, true everywhere. You might argue that industrialisation has changed this as a (relatively) stable state is not reached because of continuing rapid change, but it was true before industrialisation.
> I'll suggest a third option: humans hunt megafauna to extinction in the presence of conditions that favor such behavior - perhaps climatic, geographic, and/or cultural. So, it happens. But it doesn't always happen.
I have two objections to that:
1. Its not all megafauna, it is most. Some species can survive humans. 2. The extinctions have happened across many different climates and cultures and on every continent and many islands.
It is not proved beyond doubt that humans have always caused extinctions, but the pattern is very consistent, which makes it by far the most likely explanation. Even where hunting is not the direct cause, many things humans do (such as agriculture) will destroy their habitats.
Where humans did not arrive until much later than most places (e.g. in places such as New Zealand or Madagascar) megafauna survived until after they did, and were then gone with a few hundred or a few thousand years.
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Relax. I don’t think the OP means there’s some genetic flaw in Europeans that makes them ecologically imbalanced by nature. They’re saying that a lot of indigenous culture and practice was more sustainable. This may be for various reasons, and isn’t true only of American indigenous people but almost certainly people in Japan, India, Australia, etc., where urban civilization that depended on large scale agriculture di…
> They’re saying that a lot of indigenous culture and practice was more sustainable Europe seems very sustainable to me, people have been living there for thousands of years and are still thriving. Why do you say Europeans doesn't have sustainable agriculture? They wouldn't have been able to become so dominant otherwise.
And what even does “become so dominant” mean? You do know evolution isn’t some straight accumulative equation, right? Dominance means all things done are good?
Dominance over what time scale? Sustainable over what timescale?
The sad fact is, for any society, short term dominance causes long term instability. That multiplies a lot when you spend hundreds of years accumulating land and control and wealth. It’s sure sweet while the going lasts. Then what happens when there’s pushback?
We can’t fully answer that question yet. We’re living through that post colonial era of Europe.
My hope is Europe thrives. I doubt it will if it goes back to its old extractive practices. Thankfully, most governments in Europe seem to have moved past that mentality.
Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, for the most part, I mean there are tales about small pox ridden blankets being intentionally given to the Native Americans, but I don’t know if those are apocryphally or not. Either way it’s not like we had vaccines and immunization back then it would’ve happened anyways.
I definitely get your broader point, but it turns out the smallpox blankets things is a myth. But I know what you mean, nonetheless.
In India the British deliberately caused famines, something they learned to do in Ireland. But the Irish famines are accepted and documented but British historians go out of their way to cover up their crimes against humanity in India and other colonies.
https://www.history.com/articles/colonists-native-americans-...