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Htmx 4.0, the first JavaScript library to release exclusively on the Game Boy

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Re: Htmx 4.0, the first JavaScript library to release exclusively on the Game Boy

#211

Post by masfoobar »

tracker1 wrote: post #206
masfoobar wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - how you likely built websites in 2000's era (possibly with Classic ASP or PHP4 .. maybe Perl?) is the sort of websites we are addressing with HTMX. It's bringing us back to that sort of web development but with modern tools and technology. For the server side, we can use modern languages with better templating for html. For the client, with htmx, you can do a lot of javascript such as ajax calls (load, trigger,…

FWIW, there is some decent tooling options for C# with Razor + HTMX that are worth looking at. From JetBrains and others.

Yes - with C# websites - I default to Razor (and htmx) Very fluid, imo.

Re: Htmx 4.0, the first JavaScript library to release exclusively on the Game Boy

#212

Post by KronisLV »

andy800 wrote: post #205
KronisLV wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean a radically different view is that the SERVER should just give you the data and process your requests, without necessarily caring much about what you are - a browser or some other automated system, or a desktop client, where each has vastly different preferences on how the content might get displayed or used. With that approach, a clear API in the middle and a SPA on the client side makes a bunch of sense (as…

You're correct that it's a matter of the developer's view, or philosophy. The issue I have with "just give you the data" is that requires the server to encode the raw data somehow, most often JSON, send it down the wire just to have the client un-encode it, store it, and populate HTML elements with it. Meanwhile server-based templating is exceptionally lightweight and fast (especially when compiled) and so converting…

> There isnt a definitive right or wrong

As someone who struggled with the downright problematic lifecycle of complex JSF/PrimeFaces apps and now is in a year-long-with-no-end-in-sight migration to a SPA, I will say that the SPA wins out in quite a few development/maintenance/convenience facets, second order system effect or not. As with all migrations, it's slower than you'd expect but the pace of creating new stuff is far more promising (especially if you fight off pixel pushers) and the experience of maintaining SPAs has been good in other projects, especially given that the old JSF/PrimeFaces setup has been around for like a decade (and performed poorly throughout that time, with plenty of footguns that a wide roster of developers kept tripping over).

On the other hand, I will completely admit that SPA can bring additional complexity (especially if you end up with one of those needlessly complex solutions like Next.js or Vuex, when all you need is under 100 components across maybe a number of views on the same order of magnitude), but one also has to consider that some of the traditionally SSR solutions eventually strive to have more reactivity and often create mechanisms for partial updates, except across the board they end up being harder to debug and customize compared to some JS/TS calling a vaguely RESTful API over HTTP(S).

I unironically liked it way more when "web app" meant some PHP returning pages with forms and some Bootstrap on top, even some light jQuery (but we all know how badly the "light" bit held up).

Re: Htmx 4.0, the first JavaScript library to release exclusively on the Game Boy

#213

Post by punkweb »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #93

What I don't like about Htmx is, that it is still a JS framework, without good automatic fallbacks for a noscript situation. This leads to web devs thinking it would be great to do all the things in Htmx, even if all they have is a static page with static content. Just recently I looked at hosting an old school forum. I don't want to load all the PHP and MySQL baggage on my server or even run it in docker, so I looke…

PunkwebBB maintainer here. This is good feedback. The only thing that really does need HTMX/JS on PunkwebBB is the shoutbox polling, which you can opt out of anyway. But you're right that there should be non JS fallbacks in place of modals and other small htmx interactions. I'll get on this.

Re: Htmx 4.0, the first JavaScript library to release exclusively on the Game Boy

#214

Post by punkweb »

punkweb wrote: post #213
zelphirkalt wrote: post #93

What I don't like about Htmx is, that it is still a JS framework, without good automatic fallbacks for a noscript situation. This leads to web devs thinking it would be great to do all the things in Htmx, even if all they have is a static page with static content. Just recently I looked at hosting an old school forum. I don't want to load all the PHP and MySQL baggage on my server or even run it in docker, so I looke…

PunkwebBB maintainer here. This is good feedback. The only thing that really does need HTMX/JS on PunkwebBB is the shoutbox polling, which you can opt out of anyway. But you're right that there should be non JS fallbacks in place of modals and other small htmx interactions. I'll get on this.

I haven't published a release yet, I removed HTMX from thread/post actions and deleting categories/subcategories. The shoutbox is now the only functionality that won't work when JS is disabled. I've improved the fallback of the thread/post editor when JS is disabled as well. Those changes are in the main branch now.

Release will come soon, still some things baking.

Re: Htmx 4.0, the first JavaScript library to release exclusively on the Game Boy

#215

Post by mollerhoj »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #130
sixdimensional wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's too bad Htmx isn't just the native behavior of HTML, implemented in a cross-platform standard, that does not need to rely on Javascript in user space code. It could just be part of the browser. It should have been part of the browser. It's awesome, I'm not criticizing Htmx at all to be clear, I am criticizing our seemingly inability to advance the core web technology of HTML in browsers to include this kind of t…

we are working on this minimum viable set of changes currently: https://triptychproject.org/

This seems like a strange combination of proposals:

1) PUT, PATCH, and DELETE methods: Logical and obvious extension, no extra syntax, but easy to get around today by just using POST for everything.

2) Buttons actions without forms: Just syntax nicety to avoid a single form tag, unconsequential and just adds implementation complexity.

3) Partial page replacement: Would completely revolutionize js-free html capabilities, but the draft is unfinished..

It would seem to me that the author should have just made the thrid proposal, and not wrapped it in a project of two much less consequential proposals?

Re: Htmx 4.0, the first JavaScript library to release exclusively on the Game Boy

#216

Post by asdfsa32 »

yawaramin wrote: post #168
asdfsa32 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have learned that whenever anything is "X if Y" it means it is really weak at X and "if Y" is just a workaround. This has saved me a lot of grief in life by identifying my personal emotional attachment to things.

That’s great, but unless you know some secret perfect technology that the rest of us don’t, every tech you use is also full of these workarounds, you just ignore them because you like the tech. Also, hx-boost isn’t really a workaround, it’s a fully supported and documented feature.

But I really want hx-hyper, when is that going to be released?
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