Is this a surprise, I think history has proven that the Chinese technology theft is part of their strategy. They let the American tax payer or "The West" shoulder the cost and then steal it.
Waiting for the whataboutism....junk away...
“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
211–220 of 742 posts
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. Ah yes, I remember when Anthropic crawlers abided by the TOS of the websites they slurped up. All your other points are downstream from this, which makes them pretty tenuous. Labs don't think that ToS or other explicit wishes of content providers apply to them, but they expect everyone else to abide by theirs.
To be clear, I think theft is also bad when Anthropic does it. US and CA law really don't care that Anthropic violated IP law elsewhere.
Well, if you're solving the -root- problem, then Moonshot would have had nothing to "steal" if Anthropic didn't "steal" it first.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#213Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
It matters because the closed-source frontier labs spend lots of money on human data (RLHF / RLAIF with human oversight). Moonshot is accused of circumventing these costs. Frontier labs add research costs into their inference pricing. If the market doesn't permit them to sustain sufficient pricing to have a positive cash flow, then their business prospects become weaker and they risk insolvency. Furthermore, other le…
Oh, so mass theft is okay as long as American companies are doing it
copyright infringement is not theft, even if right holders often claim it is.
part of the definition of theft is that the original owner is deprived of it, which does not apply to copyright infringement.
You can only argue with damages from the perspective of potential profits, still not theft though.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
It matters because everyone imagines the inevitable "closing of the gap" between closed and open source, but the rate at which open source catches up with closed source seems to depend on being able to train on and distill the outputs of open source models. As long as performance of open source models is at least partially dependent on frontier-model outputs, then that gap will remain in place by definition. >Claimin…
Never claimed that it is irrelevant. And kimi k3 is on the same level and sometimes outperforms fable 5 - that cannot be explained by distillation. The reason why gap is not closed is simply the fact that fable was trained months ago so in theory the frontier labs are still 1 (small) step ahead. Although I will reiterate the fact that distillation is not the primary reason why these models are performing so competiti…
Closed-source models have to deal with the current frontier being heavily regulated. Fable, at its old level, was "too good" to be released and they had to add an additional safety layer to sanitize the outputs. Lowering the quality of the models so they are safer and more steerable has been something all the closed-source models have been doing for a while, a requirement that many open source models don't need to deal with.
If Kimi k3 really were above Fable 5 then there invariably the USG would have to consider their restrictions on model capabilities excessive, or one would have to admin closed source models are held to more restrictive safety standards than open source models.
>Although I will reiterate the fact that distillation is not the primary reason why these models are performing so competitively.
How would you know this? How could you ascertain exactly how much performance is attributable to their unique engineering/research? If they really were so competitive they could surely make a model that isn't dependent on distilling Fable or other frontier models.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#216Reminds of the quote by Bill Gates.
> "Well, Steve [Jobs]… I think it’s more like we both had this rich neighbour named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it."
Source: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/824084-well-steve-jobs-i-th...
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
All of the models stole the entirety of written knowledge on the internet to train. They are being sued for the few cases where we have some proof of what they did because of some whistleblowers, all the rest will just go unpunished. They breached Github TOS, robot.txt's, copyright, patents every form of IP protection under the sun from a billion sources. It's just ridiculous for the thieves to cry about someone else…
Do you care about the law or not? I think theft is bad everywhere, not just when Anthropic does it.
Not OP, but copyright law is an absolute joke. No, I don’t care one whit that someone’s TOS was violated. In fact, I find it hilarious. And it’s not “theft.”
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
For me, when it specifically comes to copying, I don't think it's bad to copy a copier. (And by that I mean Anthropic has no valid complaints against Moonshot. Any valid complaints from anyone in the original corpus are valid against both of them now.) In this way, it is different from literal theft. Stealing money/objects from a thief and keeping them is not justified.
It's a little different in this case, since 1) not all the data Ant used was stolen and 2) they did contribute significantly to the value of the stolen good. An analogy might be a baker stole 20% of the flour used to bake their special bread, which was then stolen. Both thefts are obviously wrong and bad.
I think any analogy with physical theft is too different from data to apply to this comparatively subtle case. Especially when we get into the details of just using the output of the model to train on.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#219Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…
Uh, what? > Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word Note that Anthropic (and USG) alleges [0] not only that Kimi was distilled, but that they actively circumvented measures intended to stop distillation. There are multiple ways that's illegal, including: - Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. - Economic espionage: 18 U.S.C. §1831…
I do agree that two wrongs don't make a right, the terms of service generally gives cooperation the power to sever the contract, but it does not make things illegal in the literal sense. The illegality usually comes from widescale fraud which includes accessing services you are banned from accessing.
When I said "Does this matter?" I specially meant that distillation in itself, the data you get from distillation is first and foremost not owned by anthropic nor is it copyrightable. If a user willingly gives up their anthropic reasoning data/traces that is 100% legal no matter what the "terms of service" say as it's not enforceable and would fall apart in court.
And what I explicitely pointed out that focusing so much on distillation is an attack on open research and claiming that the majority of advancements are thanks to US labs which is simply not true (at least not anymore this was somewhat true during deepseek R1 era), but that in itself was inspired by open research.
> How do you know that? Do you work for Anthropic? Also, this has nothing to do with architecture, we are talking about data.
Because anthropic would be the first ones to make that information public and the architecture is unique to kimi... They made it, they wrote papers on it, it's their research.
P.S. none of the quoted laws apply here since no trade information is stolen, the one about circumventing distillation protection might hold up in court although unlikely.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dean Ball, "head of strategic futures" at openai. https://xcancel.com/deanwball/status/2078133895766114412#m
> One probable outcome of an open-weight-model-dominant world is full AI communism ... This future strikes me as a dystopian hellscape. Wow, just wow. He is not even subtle about it.
He's the "head of strategic futures" of the 1T valuation company based on fear and vibes, I think he's doing a very good job at it.