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Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

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Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#211

Post by sliverstorm »

ryanhuff wrote: post #195
calinet6 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit presumptious to say that Apple is any different. Sure they are attractive at the moment because of the unique niche they are filling. If Sony, HP, Dell, Acer, Gateway, Lenovo, etc all sold a laptop with similar specs, Apple's differentiation becomes much less unique, and normal competitive factors come into play (scale, marketing, etc). So tell me, does that still hold water?

Tesla carries the banner for upper-scale electric vehicles. If you substitute the electric motor with a petrol engine, are they still so distinctive? If the big luxury/sporty brands entered the electric car market in full-force (several models, full advertising campaign) with cars of similar performance to Tesla, Tesla would struggle mightily to stand out. BTW, I am rooting for Tesla. I would love a Model S.

Especially when established luxury-sport brands have track records, brand recognition, loyalty, and high perceived value. The major players aren't dominating because the market is stagnant, they are dominating because they are good at making luxury cars.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#212

Post by ameen »

While I'd been a Tesla fanboy in the past. I have serious doubts about the role it would play in Mankind's future.

Electric cars themselves require massive battery packs, most of which emanate toxic materials and/or require many toxic materials in its production and it's ability to be recycled is doubtful at best.

A better alternative would be having Public transit systems (alternately fuelled?) in place, so that fuel/road volume is used efficiently.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#213

Post by ryanhuff »

Phlarp wrote: post #201
ryanhuff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a bit presumptuous to say that Tesla is so different. Sure, they are attractive at the moment because of unique niche they are filling. If BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Acura, etc all sold an all-electric vehicle with similar range, Tesla's differentiation becomes much less unique, and normal competitive factors come into play (scale, marketing, etc).

By the time these manufacturers catch up to where Tesla is now, wouldn't Tesla still (presumably) be years ahead? Standing still while "the powers that be" catch up seems oddly unlike a company with such an obvious culture of pushing the envelope.

That depends on where (if) the luxury competition needs to catch up. Tesla's differentiator is the electric powertrain. If they can stay ahead of the competition through technology (not large LCD's, etc), then they may have a chance.

Some people say that Tesla is the "Apple of transportation", and that Tesla can achieve success as Apple has with their design and user experience. I don't see it, however. If that was so, their differentiation would be more about industrial design and experience, and not the technology. But, as I said previously, if you put a traditional engine in a Tesla, you have a quirky luxury car manufacturer with little advantage over the more established (and experienced) competition, but with non-trivial competitive disadvantages.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#214

Post by ryanhuff »

rybosome wrote: post #197
ryanhuff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a bit presumptuous to say that Tesla is so different. Sure, they are attractive at the moment because of unique niche they are filling. If BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Acura, etc all sold an all-electric vehicle with similar range, Tesla's differentiation becomes much less unique, and normal competitive factors come into play (scale, marketing, etc).

This is a trivial statement. It's an obvious truism that if other manufacturers produced vehicles like Tesla's, then Tesla's vehicles would no longer be unique. What other companies COULD produce is irrelevant - Tesla is making something drastically different from them. You don't agree that engineering an extremely novel product makes a company "different"?

I don't know whether Tesla can maintain their technical advantage once the market becomes more interesting to the larger manufacturers. Whatever advantage they have today is irrelevant.

The capabilities of the current crop of vehicles is still outside the typical driving expectations of the broader market (limited range, slow charging). Once the technology improves to affordably and effectively eliminate these issues, all of the manufacturers are going become very motivated. If Tesla can own the solutions to these problems as a barrier to entry, then they will be in better shape. I don't know if one small company can hold a dominating technical advantage over motivated, well-funded companies in this kind of space for very long.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#215

Post by YokoZar »

temphn wrote: post #150
redler wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm almost certain you're not arguing that "dollars generated per person" is the only valid measure of the success of a government as compared to the success of a large corporation. So how do you factor in all the other measures of success in such an evaluation? Trivially, corporations are amoral entities that have the ability, and sometimes the obligation, to jettison lines of business that lose money or simply don'…

I'm almost certain you're not arguing that "dollars generated per person" is the only valid measure of the success of a government Sure, it isn't the only measure of success, but if this number is very low then that is (I would argue) a measure of failure. "Dollars generated per person" = tax-revenues per person is very similar to GDP-per-capita. And a high GDP-per-capita means you can spend on healthcare, earthquake…

By this reasoning, a government that operated more efficiently would be less successful. That can't possibly be right.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#216

Post by djt »

confluence wrote: post #167

I have a significant fraction of my net worth invested in TSLA and have done so since the IPO. I believe TSLA will become a $50 billion dollar company over the forthcoming decade as it rides 2 cost trends and global GDP growth. Elon Musk does too - his renumeration package has TSLA pegged at a possible ~ $43 billion ( http://seekingalpha.com/article/786711-a-43-billion-tesla-mu... ). I add to my position every month…

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#217

Post by mdonahoe »

hatcravat wrote: post #166
to3m wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the issue is as much the comparative inconvenience of refilling as the actual range. In fact, 300 miles sounds perfectly adequate. Many cars won't go much further before they need more fuel. But if refilling involved more than spending 5 minutes at a petrol station (of which there are plenty, everywhere) it might start to sound a bit less reasonable...

I think part of the problem is also that many people underestimate the amount of time it takes to stop for gas. For city driving, you start with a full battery in the morning and never worry about stopping for gas (so the only place charge time matters is on the freeway). The amount of time spent actually transferring liquid into the tank may only be 5 minutes. But then you need to add the time it takes for your card…

What I would enjoy is never having to stop for gas before commuting to work. Charge it overnight, and I am certain to have enough. No more driving on fumes because I forgot I was low and I don't have time to do it in the morning.

The sum of all the time spent at the pump will be greater than the times you spend at Superchargers for the occasional long distance trip.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#218

Post by Tuna-Fish »

sukuriant wrote: post #202
clarky07 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true for ethanol (which was a terrible idea), but you can also get gas from coal gasification[1] as your parent noted [2] [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gasification [2] - Fischer-Tropsch - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process

And the radioactive coal?

Part of making fuel using the Fischer-Tropsch process is actually to turn the coal into CO, which is then used further on in the process. This step is extremely good for removing impurities. All the radioactive stuff is going to be in the ash.

However, using coal means that you are not carbon neutral. It's a lot better to use some process of sequestering CO2 from the atmosphere -- either through plants, or directly. The plant solutions differ from plant oil or ethanol-based fuel production in that the plants are not expected to add any energy to the mix. This makes the process a lot more lenient on what you can stuff in, and makes the drain on agriculture a lot less severe. Also, since the nutrients in the plants are going to be left behind at gasification, they can be reused as fertilizer.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#219

Post by nnnnni »

blueprint wrote: post #139
jlgreco wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Porsche call it a "frunk" too? I can't stand that word, it's cute, but awful. Sounds like a word I might use to describe a particularly pungent cheese.

Fragrant + funk?

It's like one of those old ladies who wear copious amounts of perfume rather than bathing.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#220

Post by jpxxx »

mpyne wrote: post #155
temphn wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it is possible to believe both that Tesla is a great company and that Romney was generally right in that many of the green investments have indeed been losers (Solyndra, A123, Beacon Power, Abound Solar, ...). Lest we forget, Romney is/was a pretty great investor and entrepreneur himself, just like Elon Musk. It's unfortunate that Romney included Tesla in his list of green losers - he did start this fig…

> The government is not just any old company or investor, the government has guns and can compel action in a way that others cannot. As such it is very powerful to have as a investor and very dangerous to have as a competitor. Too dangerous. I get what you're saying but I really wish people would quit bandying about the "government has guns" line. I'm one of the zillions working in the USG and I can tell you that the…

Whether the USG is a collection of well minded do-gooders, an inept bureaucracy that can't tell one hand from another, a literal collection of antichrists, or absolutely none of the above: the USG has guns.
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