Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 360 posts

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#211

Post by hparadiz »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #205
hparadiz wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally is. People just have no discipline or skills with money. Go on the fire subreddit. 25k saved per year is a million after twenty years with a modest very conservative amount. And if you can double that with a spouse you're looking at a million in only ten years. People who stretch that to 20-25 years end up with 3-5 million.

> 25k saved per year is a million after twenty years with a modest very conservative amount. Close to 25% of people in America only make 25k a year. Forget saving that much You are wildly out of touch with the average person and their struggles to think that 25k saved per year is even remotely achievable for most people

I dunno why people keep bringing this up as some sort of gotcha. You don't save for retirement based on your average. You do it during your peak earning years. Which are far above average. And most households have more than one earner. So even a 5% savings based on a median 84k household yields over 750k in 20 years.

Like it literally is that simple.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#212

Post by WalterBright »

salawat wrote: post #191
WalterBright wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

...You are using "wealth" in a way completely foreign to how I have ever seen it used linguistically. The abundance of resources available to an individual that we call "wealth" colloquially being transferable or tradable is basically the hallmark of a market economy. It can absolutely concentrate within one, because if it can be traded, it can absolutely be not traded decreasing the velocity of that value transfer t…

Again, wealth is created, not "concentrated". The term "wealth" means the dollars you would get if you sold everything.

> wealth does, in fact, concentrate

Nope, because the people trading with you thought the exchange was of equal value, or they wouldn't have engaged in it.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#213

Post by srean »

crossbody wrote: post #207
srean wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point is that the pie is growing and all are benefitting. This is the main point of contention though. Earlier generation middle class seems to have been larger and more financially secure. That would be our parent's generation. Of course not all of our parents would qualify.

"seems" as based on vibes? Beware of nostalgia bias! It is true that middle class has been shrinking. What is often overlooked though ks that the majority of that middle class moved on to the upper class, so not bad at all and aligns with "growing pie"

I accept the criticism in name but cannot invalidate a lived experience just because it has not been quantified accurately.

> majority of that middle class moved on to the upper class

Is this true in the US in inflation adjusted terms ? Can say that it is certainly reversed direction in my country.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#214

Post by krackers »

matrix87 wrote: post #25

I'm kind of confused. It's not clear to me how or why the line keeps going up. People are spending less because of economic insecurity, everything is more expensive because of tariffs and war, interest rates have been high for four years. The general cultural mood feels unsustainable. Like the peak-woke period around 2022 before the pendulum swung really hard in the opposite direction. I don't know if there's a word…

>It's not clear to me how or why the line keeps going up

Because people believe it will go up, it's a prediction market for attention. The stock market seems to have decoupled from underlying "real value" of a company and is closer to cryptocoins now. Of course the flipside is that you also have the same volatility of cryptocoins.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#215

Post by andsoitis »

FpUser wrote: post #206
andsoitis wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth inequality was not the defining aspect of the relationship between kings and peasants. It was also not the reason for the collapse. The defining quality was the mechanisms by which kings extracted wealth from peasants (indirectly, through layers) which doesn’t resemble what we have in western liberal democracies today. Things like tallage and arbitrary taxation, labor dues, mill/oven/wine press monopolies, her…

>"If we take the top billionaires in western liberal democracies today, they do not extract wealth from the average worker (there’s no duress, for instance)" Yeah, right. Soviet level propaganda

If you can explain the mechanic, I’m all ears and open to change my point of view.

> Soviet level propaganda

I’d be careful not to conflate billionaires in Russia with those in western liberal democracies. Totally different.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#216

Post by srean »

crossbody wrote: post #210
srean wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with your statement regarding politics that rests solely on wealth distribution of the populist kind. Wealth needs to be created so that one has something to add to everyone's bag.

And I agree that _some_ redistribution is necessary for a healthy society. But the cost of slowing growth must be weighted agaist it. And populist calls for "no billionaires" etc are going to be bad for all, including the poor, in the end

Almost in violent agreement.

Disagree about the billionaire bit. Accumulates too much power too narrowly. Then one can subvert the market and rule of law. It seems the line lies somewhere between a hundred million and billion dollars at the current value of a dollar.

I am happy and eager to make exceptions on a case by case basis if that billion dollars have been made in exchange of tangible goods and services.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#217

Post by Ekaros »

matrix87 wrote: post #25

I'm kind of confused. It's not clear to me how or why the line keeps going up. People are spending less because of economic insecurity, everything is more expensive because of tariffs and war, interest rates have been high for four years. The general cultural mood feels unsustainable. Like the peak-woke period around 2022 before the pendulum swung really hard in the opposite direction. I don't know if there's a word…

On some level it is probably due to flows. As long as money keeps flowing in and things don't get revaluated things look great. More money in line goes up. Money can come from both investing and corporate revenue.

Once things are valuated again to lower point it might all cascade and crash.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#218

Post by strenholme »

VonGuard wrote: post #19
datadrivenangel wrote: post #3

Is there any graceful way to let the pressure out of the system and begin rebuilding trust and stability or is the only way out to immanentize the eschaton?

Legislation and court rulings have shown that shareholders get everything they want, ever. They want Southwest to stop checking 2 free bags? It happens. Etc. Ad Nauseum. Somehow, we need legislation that says companies are beholden first to their employees, then to their customers, THEN to shareholders. I don't know how to do that. Co-ops are the only real answer maybe?

The Southwest thing is confirmed: https://archive.ph/20250311162848/https://www.cnbc.com/2025/...

“Southwest has been under increasing pressure to raise revenue and improve returns after activist hedge fund Elliott Investment Management took a stake in the airline last year and pushed for changes to the carrier’s business model.”

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#219

Post by sfifs »

WalterBright wrote: post #133
mlsu wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piketty argues that if r > g, wealth will accumulate into fewer and fewer hands over time. R is the rate of return of capital (rents, stocks, bonds, etc) and g is the growth of the economy over time. If the economy grows at a higher rate than the rate of return, the pie gets bigger at a higher rate than wealth can concentrates. If the rate of return accumulates capital at a higher rate than the growth of the economy,…

[flagged]

Picketty's analysis has been empirical. The assumption that is likely mistaken is there is such a thing as market economy.

Re: American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn

#220

Post by fragmede »

WalterBright wrote: post #39
abuob wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're genuinely curious, a few suggestions that I personally found incredibly enlightening: Anand Giridhardas, Winners Take All: The book is fantastic, there's also his now infamous google talk where he talks about dismantling google: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d_zt3kGW1NM Thomas Piketty, Capital in the 21st century: Probably the most comprehensive (but at times also longwinded) outline on how wealth inequalit…

How about a summary of Piketty's argument? We could start off with how are you worse off because of people wealthier than you?

I'm not worse off, just because some chucklefuck has a yacht or a jet. I'm worse off when their wealth lets them out bid me for things that are scarce. Housing is currently in short supply in in-demand areas. Access to doctors is another one. The rich still only get one vote, but let's be real, being rich means buying tons of ads pushing a rich person's agenda in the run up to an election. Also tax codes. The rich get to put their kids in private schools, rather than having better public schools. That goes for other public goods too.
Post reply on HN