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Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

theguardian.com

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Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#211

Post by throwaway27448 »

asdff wrote: post #208
throwaway27448 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Genuinely, what makes the US untrustworthy if not Trump? We invaded Korea, and then Vietnam, and a few hundred other interventions that don't seem to be sanctioned by the international community. All because of a hardon for ideology that doesn't seem to actually reflect the interests of the people who live here.

Most of those were sanctioned by the international community. Look at the participants.

We had the international community on a leash after WWII. This means nothing.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#212

Post by felooboolooomba »

e40 wrote: post #97

Over the last few months we've seen announcements of shifts from US-based supply chains to non-US-supply chains. As an American, I think this is prudent, based on what has happened in the last year and change. The US is no longer a reliable partner and this is what you do when that happens. 100 years from now, the last 15 months will be written about in no uncertain terms: this administration has loaded many footguns…

> no longer a reliable partner

That's putting it mildly. Threatening to invade allies justifies stronger words.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#213

Post by throwaway27448 »

khriss wrote: post #198
throwaway27448 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of insane they trusted us to begin with. Why?

Because Trump is a new, and (hopefully!) a one time phenomenon. He is unique in that he seems to have absolute control over the Republican base which makes all internal party checks fail. The rest is provided by a hyper polarized media landscape and a conservative supreme court majority that seems to be open to radical upheavals. The combination of all three has rendered the constitutional safe guards ineffective. In…

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Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#214

Post by OrvalWintermute »

khriss wrote: post #30

I can understand why this change happened. Even if American equipment is superior, there is a lot of value to not depending on a supposed 'ally' which * Arbitrarily slapped high tariffs on all goods from Canada while exempting Russia and Belarus. * Threatened to take over the country by force. * Officially suspended the Permanent Joint Board on Defense between US and Canada because of criticism of US foreign policy b…

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Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#215

Post by gflarity »

fakedang wrote: post #197
slavik81 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans were our brothers. We had been partners for over a hundred years.

I like this analogy - sparring with each other like toddlers do, before realizing that they have a lot in common as they age, like the English language, industrialization, the systemic abuse of natives, Big Oil, the World Wars and racism. Now that they're older, they're sparring once again, just like siblings do over the parents' estate.

This is terrible analogy. We're more like neighbours, and US is a bully. We made a decision not to have much a fence before we were friendly neighbours. We regret that decision, and are planting a hedge and reaching out to our other "neighbours" for support.

The whole neighbourhood thinks you're assholes and bullies, we're all scared. But that is bring us closer together as result, so there's some upside.

Racism? Oh man, visit any other country that is more homogenous.... lol. Everything is relative.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#216

Post by asdff »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #205
asdff wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel seems trustworthy in the sense that their priorities and aims are abundantly clear to everyone. People are pissed about Israel for Iran right now, but, I mean, there is a reason why they are attacking Iran right now and not Egypt or Turkey. You go about and poke the bear like Iran has done for decades with Israel, you get these outcomes. Egypt tried to poke the bear but that was decades ago and they've since l…

Hey that's up to you. I will never vote for a person who supports Israel. Our parents may have been retarded but we don't have to be. I just see a state devoted to slaughtering as many people as they can. Iran looks like a saint compared to them.

I'm not supportive of them either. I just don't consider them untrustworthy though. Everything they do is exactly what they've always done since that state was formed. Easily the most predictable nation on earth, Israel. Easy way to get Israel off your back though? Stop funding terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah that inevitably do something stupid to provoke the Israelis into armed conflict. It is really that simple.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#217

Post by OrvalWintermute »

dleslie wrote: post #206
khriss wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Trump is a new, and (hopefully!) a one time phenomenon. He is unique in that he seems to have absolute control over the Republican base which makes all internal party checks fail. The rest is provided by a hyper polarized media landscape and a conservative supreme court majority that seems to be open to radical upheavals. The combination of all three has rendered the constitutional safe guards ineffective. In…

Trump did not rise to power in isolation. He has not remained in isolation while in power. Voter support for Trump is still reasonably strong, and Trump and his supporters have ensured that the mechanisms of Government are packed with loyalists. America chose this. America continues to tolerate this. America enabled this. This isn't something that Trump can be scapegoated for. This is what many Americans wanted, or a…

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Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#218

Post by asdff »

vkou wrote: post #203
asdff wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And democracy isn't sick in the UK that elected conservatives to leave from the EU? It isn't sick in Hungary that elected Orban? It isn't sick in Germany where 1/4 of the bundestag is comprised of AfD? Far right is rising in Canada too in recent years (1). 1. https://universityaffairs.ca/features/northern-shift/

Citing one bad election or referendum, and another country that just had a complete political upheaval that has blown up in our good friend Orban's face, and a third that's up in the air isn't as strong an argument as you would hope it to be. Any country can elect chucklefucks or vote for something stupid. Some of them have systems that are more resistant to the long-term damage they cause. Some of them are less. The…

Alright, if you think that the world is someone inoculated against this, I'm not sure what else to say. I just don't believe that at all. Humans are fungible and Americans aren't uniquely stupid.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#219

Post by mh- »

Zigurd wrote: post #120
mpol wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are facts. They do not mean that the people who ordered them today are wanting them today. If you need them in 10 years time, you need to order them today. It can easily change, if a flight company doesnt want to do business with Boeing or Airbus, they can cancel their pre-orders. Then the pre-order list might shrink really fast.

Indeed. Backlogs can evaporate. Can you imagine anyone taking delivery of a newly built 737 in 10 years? 7 years? Theoretically, that's part of the backlog.

> Can you imagine anyone taking delivery of a newly built 737 in 10 years?

..yes? Companies are still placing orders, despite knowing how long the backlog is. I also expect the 737s will still be sold in 20+ years time, much less 7-10.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#220

Post by stuxnet79 »

standardUser wrote: post #108

As an American with mostly headline-level knowledge of Canadian politics, this Mark Carney seems unusually competent and effective, as far as heads-of-state go.

Mark is a technocrat. He started his political career after a long, successful stint as an economist and central bank governor. Nobody is perfect but he is about the best leader Canada can hope for to lead it out of the current funk it is in. Pivoting away from a long-term trading partner is not an easy process.

Frankly, the issues that Canada faces now stem from a long history of questionable policies, starting from when Diefenbaker shuttered the Arrow and stripped the talent and parts to be scooped up by Boeing, Lockheed et al all the way to when Mulroney & Reagan signed the FTA dooming Canada's private sector. None of this has been good for Canada's sovereignty and long term independence/success. A non-trivial amount of the SV luminaries that have started companies which showcase American inventiveness have a Canadian passport even though they don't advertise it.

The strained relationship with the US right now is actually providing ample opportunity for Canada to make some strategic long term bets without the "US foreign policy alignment" overhang. I'm optimistic.

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