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Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

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Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#211

Post by mrtesthah »

Aurornis wrote: post #132
mrtesthah wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense for chocolate given that cocoa flavanols are prebiotic fiber for GABA-secreting bacteria which of course affects the parasympathetic nervous system.

The paper didn’t say that the microbiome was driving food preferences. It measured some bio markers and some dietary preferences and claims some correlation. The correlation is that what you eat fuels the microbiome. So your diet influences the microbiome by fueling or starving different bacteria. Complex theories about causality going the other way through complex chains of flavonoids to bacteria to neurotransmitter…

>but it’s such a complex theory

What's the theory now? I didn't propose any specific theory -- just noted a mechanism of influence.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#212

Post by sleight42 »

Muromec wrote: post #203
mtizim wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I have mild tism, I found it quite funny and quite real, it even felt good to be seen.

It's always the normies being offended for something that isn't about them.

The hell with you. I'm autistic.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#213

Post by LorenPechtel »

Aurornis wrote: post #84
dimes wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil’s advocate, isn’t it also possible that the preference for a monotonous diet is driven by gut makeup?

The microbiome might have some modulating effect, but the fidelity of gut-brain axis communication isn’t so strong that our gut microbiome is driving us around with highly specific inputs. The theories for how gut-brain axis modulation works include altering the balance of nutrients that get absorbed and modulating the vagus nerve, primarily. For someone with autism it might be possible that altering some of these ba…

But is it driven by a desire for the diet, or a desire against things that provoke an undesirable reaction?

I am forced into an extremely limited diet to avoid provoking my body any more than I have to. And, notably, one of the first reactions used to be something not tasting as good as it used to (or in one case tasting worse than it had.) It doesn't always happen but when it does it's a near 100% accurate test--the only time it ever fooled me the actual culprit turned out to be something my wife put on her face.

I saw what happened to my mother (very similar path, but started much later in life), I already knew how to isolate what was giving me trouble before it ever happened. Most people don't, though, especially when dealing with things where it isn't high on the ingredients list (or, sometimes, not at all--they are strong about requiring manufacturers to list what they put in, but there is no such requirement about noting what they fail to take out from a natural source. Not to mention being allowed to specify that most evil of ingredients "artificial flavors". The second most evil being "natural flavors.")

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#214

Post by LorenPechtel »

delecti wrote: post #210
bodiekane wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, the word "transplants" here seems to mean something very different than you're interpreting it as. This isn't a hospital procedure like an organ transplant. It's material placed into the recipients colon through an enema, nasogastric tube or possibly even just taking some pills. So it might range from done at home to done during a 30 minute visit to a clinic.

I know it's nothing on the scale of an organ transplant, but (other than pills) those things would still lead to the patients being at the hospital. And with frequent enough visits to a hospital, you would probably eat at least some meals there. That's all I meant (and said).

I would expect any of those to be possible in a doctor's office.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#215

Post by dahart »

SoftTalker wrote: post #125
dahart wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? Research funding absolutely is an investment. Research that is productized is a venture, and the universities involved absolutely do invest in the venture, and sometimes see a handsome ROI. In terms of why the public funds research, your statement might be true, but isn’t addressing the concern that many in the public have raised before: the results of the research should be public, given that the r…

> In terms of why the public funds research, your statement might be true Yes this is what I meant. We fund research because we think pure research is valuable. It needs to be done without requiring a financial return. Products sometimes come out of it and that's also a public benefit, but direct results of the research are not a "product" they are the starting point to a possible product. There is still a lot of dev…

That’s all true and I agree with all of that. But again, that doesn’t address why publicly funded research ought to be locked away for private gain. This is not to look a gift-horse in the mouth; open access publication has really taken off in the last 5 years, but for a long time until recently, the research itself was only available for relatively hefty fees from private, for-profit publishers. And nothing’s changed about the patent and university venture system; publicly funded research isn’t up for grabs by the public, and when successful, the profits don’t go to the public. The patent system as incentive to invest in research makes sense when protecting private companies that take risks with private money, but why should the public only get the indirect trickle-down benefits of research, when they pay for it directly?

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#216

Post by ZoomZoomZoom »

jamesnorden wrote: post #106
ZoomZoomZoom wrote: post #29

Absolutely outrageous/hilarious clickbait title. It's not for autism but totally opposite.

Did you also think "treatment for cancer" caused cancer where there was none?

The keyword there is "treatment". It can be "cure" or "remedy" or something like that. But the title has "transplants".

The contrast is obvious, though I'm not native, so YMMV.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#217

Post by thin_carapace »

sleight42 wrote: post #162
Muromec wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids got into tech industry and now it’s their spouses that have to deal with their tism, instead of parents

This is incredibly offensive. Mods, please see to this comment.

personally I think it's important that parents (especially those who raised kids requiring significant time investment) can vent to express themselves. coming from this perspective I don't really care if a slur or two goes flying, so may I ask what was so incredibly offensive?

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#219

Post by oliculipolicula »

jdw64 wrote: post #6

Personally, anyone looking to get a fecal transplant from Sir Demis Hassabis will have to line up behind me. I want to be first in line.

Would you prefer the oral route?

Just kidding.

Reading HN has the benefit of making me wonder how brainwashed I am.

Reflecting now, maybe it's my deeply held belief that everything is propaganda[0] and nobody that appears smart is honest (with the possible exception of a handful of Finns I have met in person and Western Europeans that I have met online, plus a couple scions of the ultrarich or geniuses I have had the luck to uh hang out with, the last category of totally unknown autistic --compared to Demis-- and thus defying the assumption of "appearance"..? anyways.. )

.. so should I be absolutely terrified of myself "just appearing smart but in no way autistic" to others? A question to ask the therapist :)

[0] https://www.psypost.org/intelligence-makes-people-more-trust...

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#220

Post by doctorpangloss »

senordevnyc wrote: post #144
doctorpangloss wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't the only company doing this exact therapy. It isn't a good one. When I looked at preclinical for one of their competitors, that was the exact same thing, the issue was study design. Specifically, you are shoving something up an autistic kid's butt once a day or twice a day. They only did this to the placebo arm for 3 days, and only to healthy kids, whereas the treatment arm did this for 8 weeks. If I punc…

This seems a wild theory. So in your view, effectively abusing autistic kids results in a long-term, sustained, massive reduction in their autism symptoms? Highly skeptical on that, chief. I’d bet good money it goes the other way, and causing intentional pain and suffering in autistic kids would only worsen their symptoms. I don’t even think I understand your proposed mechanism here. So these kids have this treatment…

I don't think you should be downvoted for expressing skepticism. I'm not going to address the details here, besides to say, I'm talking about something else.

You can read their current study, its primary endpoint is severely treatment resistant GI symptoms, not "autism". That means they are trying to get a liquid FMT with two hero laxative doses per day approved for ASD kids who have failed two other standard of care GI treatments.

But then why not get it approved for adults without ASD? It's a simple question. As you are not very familiar with the therapeutics startup business, you wouldn't know that it's all about commercialization. They are gambling that parents will buy this drug anyway, for its secondary endpoint, which is supposed to be "less disobedient behavior while ASD" (my characterization of the evaluation they receive).

Look... parents can also punch their kids, and I'm sure it'll modify their behavior. Do you see? It's not complicated, there's no conspiracy, there's barely any science.

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