Airport Security Is Killing Us • Hacker News Board

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#211

Post by smsm42 » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 7:08 AM UTC

tadfisher wrote: post #169

pessimizer wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can tell you that your experience will be vastly different depending on where you live and work. I'm not sure how this makes the US different from the countries it's being compared to. They all have more and less dangerous regions. There are more and less dangerous regions within a block's walk from me, but the average over that area gives me a general basis of comparison with other areas. I always feel that there…

> I always feel that there's a racial subtext to this kind of defense of US statistics (which I often hear in terms of education, crime, and health outcomes.) There is, and that is a characteristic of the United States in general of which most who live there are keenly aware. This is why they speak quickly against comparisons of the United States as a whole against Scandinavian countries or Japan. Those countries do…

Japan has plenty of racism. They just don't have a lot of who to apply it to - not in the scales that it happened in the US.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#212

Post by jvm » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 7:12 AM UTC

tadfisher wrote: post #51

grecy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has the highest murder rate of the developed world, higher even than a chunk of developing countries. My quick glace showed America at 4.2, the next developed country is Finland at 2.2, so living in America you're 1.9 times more likely to be murdered than any other developed country. Of course, the vast majority of Developed countries have a murder rate less than 1.0 per 100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.or…

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities. Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4. Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8. It'…

I'm sure you could cherry pick parts of Finland that have even lower gun violence. Conversely, unlike your cherry-picked states, parent actually chose Finland for its exceptionally high gun violence. Even if you broke out the 50 states few would be within the normal range for wealthy countries.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#213

Post by a_c_s » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 7:13 AM UTC

bzbarsky wrote: post #168

a_c_s wrote: post #134

Am I the only one to have pleasant experience flying? I usually travel 2-4 times a year by myself as a single male. I plan for security (eg. I don't try to bring along liquids and wear shoes that are easily removed) and haven't had to wait in a security line longer than 15 minutes in the US in 6+ years. I have been pulled aside twice to be patted down by the TSA, neither of which invasive nor did they get near my gen…

The issue is not the time it takes to clear security. The issue is whether it makes you feel like shit to clear it. If it doesn't make you feel like shit given how airport security works right now, I respectfully submit your shit-meter is calibrated wrong. But also, two points: 1) Your flying experience would be quite different with kids. 2) The flying experience varies very widely by airport. Often by terminal withi…

I tried to make my situation clear so as to avoid making it seem like I was commenting on other people's situations. Not everyone can easily avoid taking liquids along for example, and I certainly don't want to imply that people in other situations than mine 'invite' security hassles.

But part of what I'm trying to understand is why any of the current rules "should" make me feel like shit to go through - taking a few things out of my bag and removing my shoes are easy and quick. [Of course I sympathize with people who have horror stories, but I don't think everyone posting on HN, Slashdot and Reddit have personally been treated egregiously].

What is it I am missing? Is there a moral principle people of having to go through security people are upset about? Or frustration that the TSA is a large part security theatre? Or is it that so many people traveling do so in configurations that get much more hassle than I do - traveling with children, unavoidable liquids, medical devices, etc. ?

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#214

Post by smsm42 » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 7:18 AM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #50

The TSA has the same problem car alarms or home security systems have: there's no way to prove how many events they've prevented.

There's however the documented cases of the guns carried onboard that they did not prevent. And there's documented evidence of TSA confiscating butter knife from the pilot (obviously, he was going to hijack himself), purse with picture of a gun from a 17-year girl (that was undoubtedly Hermione Granger and TSA knew she could turn picture of a gun to a real gun with her magic), plastic lightsaber from a small kid (Anakin Skywalker, I presume, and everybody knows how he turned out, so better to be safe) and a plastic 4 inch GI Joe gun from another kid (again, who knows those underage magicians - maybe they could turn it to the real one). I have no idea why they have problems proving they prevent many acts of terror, with such record. People must be stupid.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#215

Post by smsm42 » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 7:24 AM UTC

a_c_s wrote: post #213

bzbarsky wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not the time it takes to clear security. The issue is whether it makes you feel like shit to clear it. If it doesn't make you feel like shit given how airport security works right now, I respectfully submit your shit-meter is calibrated wrong. But also, two points: 1) Your flying experience would be quite different with kids. 2) The flying experience varies very widely by airport. Often by terminal withi…

I tried to make my situation clear so as to avoid making it seem like I was commenting on other people's situations. Not everyone can easily avoid taking liquids along for example, and I certainly don't want to imply that people in other situations than mine 'invite' security hassles. But part of what I'm trying to understand is why any of the current rules "should" make me feel like shit to go through - taking a few…

For me, it is a feeling of being subjected to stupid and demeaning procedures which exist only for show. When I pass, for example, Israeli security - which may take more time, but does it in a completely different way - I do not feel this, because I feel I understand what they are doing and why. TSA has no real reason to grope my ass and my balls - they do it because somebody somewhere decided they should, and his reasons probably were nothing but covering his ass in case something happens.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#216

Post by grecy » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 7:26 AM UTC

tadfisher wrote: post #169

pessimizer wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can tell you that your experience will be vastly different depending on where you live and work. I'm not sure how this makes the US different from the countries it's being compared to. They all have more and less dangerous regions. There are more and less dangerous regions within a block's walk from me, but the average over that area gives me a general basis of comparison with other areas. I always feel that there…

> I always feel that there's a racial subtext to this kind of defense of US statistics (which I often hear in terms of education, crime, and health outcomes.) There is, and that is a characteristic of the United States in general of which most who live there are keenly aware. This is why they speak quickly against comparisons of the United States as a whole against Scandinavian countries or Japan. Those countries do…

>This is why they speak quickly against comparisons of the United States as a whole against Scandinavian countries or Japan. Those countries do not have the ethnic heterogeneity or deep-seated institutional racism that the United States has experienced and still experiences.

America is not unique in that it faces challenges and obstacles to being successful. Japan had two nuclear weapons used on it's citizens, half of Western Europe has been invaded and occupied in the last 70 years, and Australia has had the worst drought ever recorded. Those examples barely scratch the surface.

Your line of reasoning that America is "unique" or somehow "different" because of the challenges it continues to face is a perfect example of American exceptionalism.

Facing challenges and obstacles is all part of the challenge of building a successful country where the average person on the street has a high quality of life. When compared against other first world countries, which have also faced very large challenges to their success, America does not rank well. Stop making excuses and finding reasons to excuse yourself from greater comparisons.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#217

Post by a_c_s » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 7:46 AM UTC

lancewiggs wrote: post #173

a_c_s wrote: post #134

Am I the only one to have pleasant experience flying? I usually travel 2-4 times a year by myself as a single male. I plan for security (eg. I don't try to bring along liquids and wear shoes that are easily removed) and haven't had to wait in a security line longer than 15 minutes in the US in 6+ years. I have been pulled aside twice to be patted down by the TSA, neither of which invasive nor did they get near my gen…

I feel sad that you find being crotch-groped by anyone acceptable, let alone someone who has asserted legal authority to do so. Would you like your 13 year old son and daughter to be exposed to the same process? How about someone who has been a victim of abuse? Yes it's amazing to fly through the air, but the US airports, security and airlines do the level best to convert that miracle into torture.

I never said crotch-grabbing was acceptable. I said that compared to being frisked by the police the TSA pat-downs I have experienced were unobtrusive. Given this, the outrage towards the TSA seems disproportionate, especially given that the TSA only affects people who fly whereas police tactics affect everyone in the country.

Is there a disparity or is it that Slashdot and HN post articles about TSA abuses but not non-technical police abuses? Most people don't even seem to think frisking is an abuse of power, (though it seems like you may disagree with that), so why the outrage at the TSA but not the police?

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#218

Post by tadfisher » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 7:59 AM UTC

jvm wrote: post #212

tadfisher wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities. Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4. Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8. It'…

I'm sure you could cherry pick parts of Finland that have even lower gun violence. Conversely, unlike your cherry-picked states, parent actually chose Finland for its exceptionally high gun violence. Even if you broke out the 50 states few would be within the normal range for wealthy countries.

Believe it or not, I don't disagree with you. The majority of states in the US are not what you would think of as "developed" by any objective measure-- be it crime, poverty, health, education, or equality. That is why I included states like Louisiana with murder rates comparable to some African nations.

But you cannot deny that some regions of the US are developed, are great places to live, and are comparable in terms of geographic area, population, and economic output with the European countries mentioned in this thread. Basically, to anyone who has spent time here, Louisiana is as different from Oregon as Lithuania is from Denmark. To lump all the states together and draw meaning from the statistical average is to fundamentally misunderstand what America is: a coalition of independent states, with different agendas and demographics.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#219

Post by tadfisher » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 8:25 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #216

tadfisher wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always feel that there's a racial subtext to this kind of defense of US statistics (which I often hear in terms of education, crime, and health outcomes.) There is, and that is a characteristic of the United States in general of which most who live there are keenly aware. This is why they speak quickly against comparisons of the United States as a whole against Scandinavian countries or Japan. Those countries do…

>This is why they speak quickly against comparisons of the United States as a whole against Scandinavian countries or Japan. Those countries do not have the ethnic heterogeneity or deep-seated institutional racism that the United States has experienced and still experiences. America is not unique in that it faces challenges and obstacles to being successful. Japan had two nuclear weapons used on it's citizens, half o…

I am not making excuses for my country, and I am not here to prove that America is unique in that it has to face challenges. I am trying to say that America is not one place or one people, or even one government, and that comparing the entirety of a loose coalition of independent states to single independent nations is disingenuous and ignores specific factors that other developed nations simply don't have to deal with. Yes, all countries have challenges, but all challenges are not the same. I listed a few in my previous posts.

I don't appreciate your belligerent discourse, putting words in my mouth, or typecasting me as a brainwashed patriot. I am well aware of America's problems and I recognize that the United States as a whole is falling well behind in many important metrics. You are not buying my argument that these metrics are skewed greatly by historical and regional concerns that are outside the control of the federal government, and that is your prerogative. But please do not belittle me and accuse me of being ignorant of the world's problems.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#220

Post by s_henry_paulson » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 8:39 AM UTC

afterburner wrote: post #86

tokenadult wrote: post #24

Hear. Hear. I want to be able to walk into an airport with my shoes on and walk calmly to an arrival gate to greet arriving passengers there. And I want to be able to carry a Swiss Army knife in an airline carry-on bag. And I want the terrorists to be attacked relentlessly where they live, so that they have to hide in caves and ride on goats, while Americans and other people in developed countries get to lead civiliz…

I didn't downvote you, but it's very obviously this part: "And I want the terrorists to be attacked relentlessly where they live" This implies enthusiastic support of constant US intervention in foreign lands. Maybe that's not what you meant, but I'm guessing it's what people are reacting to.

I downvoted him. This is ignorance that shouldn't be tolerated.

He's acting like the Taliban is a personal threat to him when traveling by air. They are not, and citing things like Richard Reid (who was British), do not support the argument.

There are repressive regimes all over the world, many that commit atrocities much worse than the Taliban, yet I still feel that I should be able to board a flight without someone putting their hands on my penis.

The whole Taliban argument seems misplaced as well considering nearly all of the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 (the cause of the increased airport security) were nearly all from Saudi Arabia.

So while we do nothing to Saudi Arabia, this person wants to feel safer flying by dropping bombs on Pakistanis.

Stupid on many levels.