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Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

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Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#211

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kelnos wrote: post #202
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem isn’t really enforcement The problem is street-side parking.

Street side parking is fine. You can move the parking out a few feet and put the bike lane between the ordering and curb. Works well where I've seen it.

> Street side parking is fine

It’s a massive subsidy that takes up space. If you have the space to move it and still permit e.g. delivery trucks from blocking the road, great. Many cities don’t have that space and yet cede it to parking.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#212

Post by kelnos »

dangus wrote: post #191
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Waymo and other taxi services are inherently bad for cyclists compared to increasing transit utilization Anecdote: I take transit way more in San Francisco with Waymo. Because booking is deterministic (it says 20 minutes, it will be there in 20 minutes, even if it’s a short ride), I can connect with the loose network of city and regional rail systems in a way that was tedious with human drivers. (I lived in New Yor…

Which, again, is a band-aid to bad regional transit connectivity.

We live in the real would and have to work with what actually exists. I'd love it if my city had Tokyo's rail system, but it doesn't, and won't.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#213

Post by crazygringo »

defrost wrote: post #206
crazygringo wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Going around a parked car is a basic ability you need to have as a cyclist. If you can't do that safely, then you have no business riding in the first place. Looking behind you is not optional, as you seem to suggest it is. And if it is actually a "small risk", then you are going way too fast. Again -- if you don't have the environmental awareness to go around a parked car, then you shouldn't be riding a bicycle…

This comment assumes a high mix of cars and bikes in an environment of unseparated traffic. With literal decades of near daily bike riding behind me I've rarely had to maneuver a bike or a car around a parked car in regular (not US) traffic flow.

It doesn't matter how often you have to do it. It's still a basic ability you need to possess.

And yes, my own experience comes from Manhattan, where that's something pretty much everyone has to do on a daily basis. You've got double-parking everywhere.

But even if you don't need to often (lucky you), the idea that this is somehow something unusually unsafe just doesn't hold any water. If it's unsafe for you, you have no business being on the road. You are a danger to others if you are unable to look behind you when changing lanes.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#214

Post by saagarjha »

nandomrumber wrote: post #146
Arubis wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not work both ways. One party to this is a high-inertia, potentially high-velocity metal box that, in an impact with the other party, typically results in an property insurance claim. The other is a low-inertia flesh bag that, in an impact with the other party, results in a medical insurance claim, and possibly a funeral.

All the more reason to be aware of who you’re sharing the road with. I spent a decade cycling for commute in a capital city in Australia. I’m also a tradesman, so I’m well aware that some people actually work on the road. By being a pedestrian or cyclist, you’re literally in other people’s workplace . Delivery drivers, construction workers, breakdown services, road maintenance, electricians, crane operators, cars for…

Working on the road does not give you priority on the roads. If anything, if you’re making money off it, maybe you should be more mindful of the commons you’re using for your profession.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#215

Post by jacknews »

Isn't it illegal?

I'm sure they just get away with it because of the low chance of 'getting caught', getting a ticket.

But in fact the evidence is in the GPS logs, so they should be either required to stop doing something illegal, or prosecuted using that data.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#216

Post by pandaman »

ok_dad wrote: post #79
tjwebbnorfolk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to hear how you equate "misery and death" with "unloading a passenger in the bike lane for 30 seconds". I can't tell if you intend this a real analogy or if you are overcome with rage when thinking about motor vehicles

Pulling into the bike lane for 30 seconds causes bikers to have to unsafely pull around the car, possibly causing accidents. In some cities and lanes you may be endangering dozens of bikers during the 30 seconds. I had to commute by foot for two years into a city, and I have to say I understand the rage. Cars nearly killed me a dozen times and I was always more safe than the law required of me as a pedestrian. Most d…

>Pulling into the bike lane for 30 seconds causes bikers to have to unsafely pull around the car

Or, hear me out, they could stop if passing the car is unsafe.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#217

Post by Saline9515 »

pseudocomposer wrote: post #198

The “cars stopping in random places everywhere in any remotely urban area” thing has become a huge problem in general. It’s probably our clearest sign of the fundamental scalability problems of car-centric design. Assuming we can’t significantly reduce car usage (and noting that you can still prioritize bike/pedestrian-friendliness and assume this), we really need regular car equivalents to bus stops. For Waymo or hu…

In France, especially in Paris, you have large "delivery" parking places where you are allowed to stop but not to park.

Unfortunately, with the rise of bike lanes, those spots are not quite dangerous, as the delivery person has to cross the lane to access the sidewalk and bicycles refuse to slow down, as usual.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#218

Post by [deleted] »

CrimsonRain wrote: post #152
Stratoscope wrote: post #103

I won't comment on the pick up / drop off situation, but another important scenario is right turns. In California, drivers are legally required to merge into the bike lane when making a right turn. This is for the safety of the bicyclists, to avoid the dreaded "right hook" collision. Dylan Taylor, a beloved Menlo-Atherton High School football coach, was killed last year in one of these collisions: https://www.almanac…

And when you do that, (most) cyclists behind you get angry. (Most) cyclists are rude and act like they own the road.

[deleted]

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#219

Post by jrowen »

californical wrote: post #99
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure it went something like “so where are we allowed to pickup and drop off riders” and the city couldn’t answer. The problem isn’t really enforcement, the problem is that there are simply no alternatives, and the city shies away from enforcement because they know that. If they started enforcing the rules strictly, people would again ask questions that they aren’t prepared to answer. If you compare that to…

Yes, in sane countries the rules are attempted to be defined in a fair way, and you can follow them. Not perfectly of course, but with that goal. Like the Netherlands, it is (A) not possible to park in bike paths without going intentionally out of your way, and (B) there are reasonable alternatives, such as specific “loading zones” for passengers on nearly every block, on major roads. On minor neighborhood roads, you…

The US is happy creating laws for everything that are impossible to follow, but only selectively enforced.

Do you consider this insane? Your assertions that "everyone always must break the law" and "there are effectively no laws" seem a bit extreme. Ultimately, with any messy human affair, there is always going to be discretion involved, and I don't think implicitly codifying that is a bad thing. It does tend to work by and large. I've personally had much worse experiences with officials following the letter of the law than with them using discretion, but I admit I am not in any class that is often discriminated against.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#220

Post by TulliusCicero »

slibhb wrote: post #160
spankalee wrote: post #59

Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. Given that human drivers stop in bike lanes, Waymo then has a tradeoff: 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic…

I agree with your analysis but I just want to point out that, as a general rule, cyclists do not follow traffic laws. They don't stop at stop signs/red lights. They weave in and out of traffic. They often bike the wrong way down one-way bike paths.

Drivers generally don't follow traffic laws. They text on their phone while they drive. They routinely go over the speed limit. They go through red lights. They go into or park in bike lanes. They tailgate other drivers. They don't signal before turning or changing lanes.
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