Live data from Hacker News

In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

electrek.co

211–220 of 231 posts

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Functional train system" is not how anyone would describe the UK. It's cheaper to fly than take the train. Cost to fill up doesnt matter, only the cost per mile.

~1.5 billion train journeys a year is “functional”.

It's cheaper to purchase new bike/used car, tax and insure it, service and fuel, than to use train to ride to work.

Annual train ticket form my small town (25 miles from the Zone 1 of London) is over £5,500. Five GRAND. For the pleasure of standing every time and a much higher risk of getting mugged.

£15k will give you REALLY nice bike or pretty new car. After third year you're saving thousands. Of course if you decided to buy something old and used, you're saving from the second quarter of the first year on.

It's only functional because not everyone can afford another car to work.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#212
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which EU countries? I see LOADS of them as taxis in Spain, for example

I live in Spain. I think the ones you see here are likely hybrids as there is little/no EV infrastructure here and the hybrids are exempt from the tariffs (for now). I can't remember if plug-in hybrids are exempt as well or only conventional hybrids.

I think I may have misremembered. It was only in Alicante than almost all my app-ordered taxis were BYD (fully electric, definitely not hybrid)

Loads of Teslas and BYD in Lisbon too

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#213
post #174

Of course EVs are perhaps a net benefit to society (noise, pollution etc) but at least be honest about the cost trajectory. Any article that doesn't mention the cost of motorway/dual carriage way electric charging is being disingenuous. PAYG is 75-90p/kWh currently. Tesla superchargers with a subscription 57p/kWh (you'll pay with time, due to being busy) And do you think when EV ownership becomes more popular, the 4p…

> The UK does not have a good, cheap solution plentiful cheap electric in the next decade or two, so any major increase in demand will mean even higher costs. Of course it does… the UK has tariffs that change by electricity demand and supply capacity As we build out more renewables there will be more times of excess supply and hence cheaper electricity during these times The buildout of battery storage and north-sout…

The old "cheaper electricity is coming due to renewables, any day now"

An almost guaranteed reply

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#214
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

35ct/kwh is highway robbery.

What is actually the realistic cost. Covering infra, the charger and the maintenance of everything involved. Power and transfer included, with transfer including any standing charges. And after that you probably want decent margin to well run the business.

I don't expect 10 thousands of the fast chargers in my town.

I'd love to have slow chargers built into the street lights. Not everyone owns a house, and the public charging usually meets or exceeds the petrol price per mile.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#215
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what schemes are that good (would be interested to see). My company has one, but I ended up buying a used ICE because it worked out to cost about the same as leasing the equivalent EV model of that car. But that might have been the case for the specific car I was looking at (small Volvo SUV).

Yeah, my company has similar scheme and it's terrible, both EVs and ICE.

Unfortunately, if your employer uses a "scheme" then the middleman creams off the 15% that the employer would save, then jacks up prices well beyond the market because they have a captive audience.

If the employer leases the car themselves and provides it to you as a benefit, it can be good value -- but then someone has to own the risk of you changing jobs.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ford’s CEO said that if Chinese EVs are allowed into USA it will destroy the US automakers I'm a strong advocate for giving Chinese EVs an import quota per manufacturer (with a 1.5mm-unit annual cap on total Chinese EV imports, downgradable to 1mm in a recession, representing about 10% of demand). This gives American consumers–and designers–access to and a taste for what the competition is doing. But it preserves a…

So no free market. Consumers have to subsidise crap companies.

The company isn't necessarily crap; American manufacturing has to pay higher labor costs due to higher cost of living. A completely free market allows low cost of living companies to essentially arbitrage cost of living, with the result that the higher cost of living country gets reduced manufacturing capability. Inability to manufacture things is a strategic weakness, and we will probably get to see the consequences of that if we ever get in a serious war with China.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there is not enough infrastructure for EVs. If you can't charge at home (e.g. you live in a flat), it is hard to live with an EV and it's much more expensive than the ICE.

You can't fill up your gas tank at home or at work, which is presumably where a significant portion of EV drivers charge their cars.

About 65% of homes are owned (either outright or via mortgage), but I can't estimate how many of them have garage or off street/driveway parking they can charge their car on.

There's usually very little of the garage space available.

And this is how the typical street looks like: no way to charge at home: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2X6K1R4/typical-english-terraced-h...

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, I had no idea California was that bad. How is that even possible? Our rate is 15c/kwh.

I'm in CA and only charge at home, and pay 14c/kwh.

palo alto and santa clara don't count. They have well-run power companies, not pushing regulatory capture.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#219
post #45

The treatment of our betters regarding "nudged" electrification is borderline misanthropic. For people with a garage or a driveway who can charge at home, EVs are overwhelmingly a better option. The problem is that large swathes of the population are outside of that and you're making their lives miserable by punishing ICE car ownership. Meanwhile, adoption numbers are thrown about ignoring that for those in optimal c…

> The problem is that large swathes of the population are outside of that and you're making their lives miserable by punishing ICE car ownership

I think that's the plan - force adoption and double down on the misery so that people forcefully invest into building infrastructure that otherwise wouldn't have.

In other words, you're synthesizing demand. It would be extremely interesting to see how it works out! In my limited experience, these synthetic initiatives explode in costs because it lets grifters, scammers and arbitragers defraud the synthetic demand side (due to the lack of a real free market system which is naturally self calibrating and managing).

One thing that I wonder about - unlike in the U.S. where gas is cheap, my understanding is that it's around $10/gal around most of the E.U. right now? If so, what's stopping people from running towards EVs naturally?

- Is it just the lack of charging infrastructure?

- Is it because most people in the E.U. live in dense areas where it's hard to setup charging infrastructure?

- Is it because most people in the E.U. live in dense areas where public transportation is cheap on a unit "per head" basis making local governments hesitate to invest in charging infrastructure directly?

- Is it that over-regulation in the E.U. make it extremely difficult to build charging infrastructure in the first place?

From a U.S. perspective, I would imagine that most of the U.S. (especially rural and suburban US) would switch to EVs overnight if Chinese EVs were allowed to flood the market. A lot of cities in the U.S. are accommodating literally golf carts on their streets so a $10k brand new Chinese EV that you could plugin is likely to sell like hotcakes.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is a 50kWh battery in a car is worth more as a battery than a typical £1500 car. The lowest end of the market won’t have electric cars unless the batteries are shagged (early Leafs) And given how insanely cheap petrol is (15p a mile, so £450 for a low mileage runaround) the savings even if electric was free and they weren’t introducing a 3p/mile charge isn’t there.

A £1500 car is £1500 because it's expected you'll need to replace the engine or transmission pretty soon. That can be up to a £4000 job (£2500 on the low end). And, as it turns out, a brand new 50kWh battery costs around £4000 to manufacture. Used will be cheaper.

I spent £1100 on a car 4 years ago and have spent half that keeping it going through mots
Post reply on HN