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Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

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Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#211

Post by masswerk »

hungryhobbit wrote: post #29

"Avoid JavaScript reimplementations of HTML basics, e.g. React Button components instead of styled elements." Tell me you know nothing about web development without saying you know nothing about web dev ... 1. React is an irrelevant implementation detail. You can have a plain HTML button in a button component, or you can have an image or whatever else. React has nothing to do with the design choices. 2. React is also…

> Can you imagine if every button on every site was the same Windows button gray color, regardless of the site's color? It'd be awful!

As it happens, this is how it was for years and years, actually, for most of the existence of the Web. The basic appearance of form elements used to be un-styleable, locked to the OS UI-appearance, for general usability concerns.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#212

Post by kristianp »

> You can enter ALT+F to open the File menu, then hit N

Some developers raised on Macs don't understand the need for this behaviour in the Windows version of their software. Most do, but it's frustrating when the windows version of a multi platform framework doesn't afford for this.

Also the arrival of windows 8 which put controls and buttons at top and bottom of the screen was a big step backwards in consistency. Mobile interfaces (Android) still do this and it slows down interactions.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#213

Post by jimbokun »

AgentEpsilon wrote: post #91
uhoh-itsmaciek wrote: post #58

In text boxes in some applications, enter submits the entered text, and ctrl-enter forces a newline (not at my computer, but I think Slack does this). In others, it's the other way around (pretty sure GitHub does this for comments). I don't know how we got here and I don't know how to fix it, but "bring back idiomatic design" doesn't help when we don't have enough idioms. I'm not even sure if those two behaviors are…

Teams does both - normally it’s Enter to submit and Shift+Enter for a new line, but when you open the formatting tools it switches. They at least do have a message indicating which key combo inputs a new line, but it still gets me on occasion.

I have a very mild jolt of anxiety every time I want to enter a new line in Teams or Slack, wondering if it will send a half completed message I will need to edit after the recipient has seen the half completed message, or it will enter a new line like I want it to.

The behavior also changes if you start editing a numbered or unordered list. Maybe that enters the "formatting tools" mode you mention?

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#214

Post by trelbutate »

uhoh-itsmaciek wrote: post #58

In text boxes in some applications, enter submits the entered text, and ctrl-enter forces a newline (not at my computer, but I think Slack does this). In others, it's the other way around (pretty sure GitHub does this for comments). I don't know how we got here and I don't know how to fix it, but "bring back idiomatic design" doesn't help when we don't have enough idioms. I'm not even sure if those two behaviors are…

Nice solution for this might be:

Ctrl+Enter: Always submits

Shift+Enter: Always newline (if supported)

Enter: Reasonable default, depending on context

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#215

Post by masswerk »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #162
nkrisc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 03/04/2026 March 4th or the 3rd of April? If you have an international audience that’s going to mess someone up. Better yet require YYYY-MM-DD.

As they type it, start displaying what it is. If, as you type "03/", it says "March", and that's not what you want, you now know what format it wants. (And yes, always accept YYYY-MM-DD format, please.)

Ah, the MS Word experience:

User enters German date "1. April"

MS Word: new ordered list with item "April"

User furiously hits delete key.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#216

Post by least »

physicles wrote: post #86
uhoh-itsmaciek wrote: post #58

In text boxes in some applications, enter submits the entered text, and ctrl-enter forces a newline (not at my computer, but I think Slack does this). In others, it's the other way around (pretty sure GitHub does this for comments). I don't know how we got here and I don't know how to fix it, but "bring back idiomatic design" doesn't help when we don't have enough idioms. I'm not even sure if those two behaviors are…

In Slack it can get even worse. If you turn on Markdown formatting, shift+enter adds a new line, unless you’re in a multi-line code block started with three backticks, and then enter adds a new line and shift+enter sends the message. I can see why someone thought this was a good idea, but it’s just not.

It’s kind of modal editing. Your 99% is enter to send because it’s a chat program. You’re sending mostly quick messages where adding a chorded input to send is just adding extra work to that mode.

When you enter a code block, that assumption changes. You are now in a “long text” mode where the assumptions are shifted where you are more likely want to insert a new line than to send the message.

I think people that have used tables or a spreadsheet and a text editor kind of understand modal editing and why we shift behaviors depending on the context. Pressing tab in a table or spreadsheet will navigate cells instead of inserting a tab character. Pressing arrow keys may navigate cells instead of characters in the cell. Pressing enter will navigate to the cell below, not the first column of the next row. It’s optimized for its primary use case.

I think if the mode change was more explicit it’d maybe be a better experience. Right now it is largely guessing what behavior someone wants based off the context of their message but if that mismatches the users expectations it’s always going to feel clumsy. A toggle or indicator with a keyboard shortcut. Can stick the advanced options inside the settings somewhere if a power user wants to tinker.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#217

Post by bitwize »

pilingual wrote: post #72

Interesting that Apple is praised. > that a link? Maybe! When Apple transitioned from skeuomorphic to flat design this was a huge issue. It was difficult to determine what was a button on iOS and whether you tapped it (and the removal of loading gifs across platforms further aggravated problems like double submits). Another absurdity with iOS is the number of ways you can gesture. It started simply, now it is complex…

I think that the best UI design language is somewhere between "flat" and "skeuomorphic". I want neither a UI with notes apps that have Moleskine leather and vellum paper textures, nor the Android 12-like vague shapes of current-day macOS. The Windows 9x, and even more so, its predecessor NEXTSTEP, look and feel was perfect. Widgets had depth and definition, were still abstract but readily identifiable to the eye.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#218

Post by bitwize »

skydhash wrote: post #74
kennywinker wrote: post #28

> You don’t want to have to remember to use CTRL + Shift + C in certain circumstances or right-click → copy in others, that’d be annoying. laughs in linux wouldn’t that be nice.

Terminal UX existed before the CUA guidelines from IBM. People complains about Ctrl + Shift + C behavior when it exists only in one category of application, terminal emulators.

This is why Apple gave Macs a command key in 1984. Control is for sending control cides; command is for issuing commands!

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#219

Post by squidsoup »

lelanthran wrote: post #137
hungryhobbit wrote: post #29

"Avoid JavaScript reimplementations of HTML basics, e.g. React Button components instead of styled elements." Tell me you know nothing about web development without saying you know nothing about web dev ... 1. React is an irrelevant implementation detail. You can have a plain HTML button in a button component, or you can have an image or whatever else. React has nothing to do with the design choices. 2. React is also…

> React is also how you get consistent design across a major web app. Can you imagine if every button on every site was the same Windows button gray color, regardless of the site's color? It'd be awful! React components (with CSS classes) are a way for a site like Amazon to make all their buttons orange (although I don't actually know if Amazon uses React specifically). I don't understand this point specifically. I m…

Design is more than styling, it is also behaviour and state, which is what react helps you encapsulate in a component.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#220

Post by dfxm12 »

jimbokun wrote: post #213
AgentEpsilon wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teams does both - normally it’s Enter to submit and Shift+Enter for a new line, but when you open the formatting tools it switches. They at least do have a message indicating which key combo inputs a new line, but it still gets me on occasion.

I have a very mild jolt of anxiety every time I want to enter a new line in Teams or Slack, wondering if it will send a half completed message I will need to edit after the recipient has seen the half completed message, or it will enter a new line like I want it to. The behavior also changes if you start editing a numbered or unordered list. Maybe that enters the "formatting tools" mode you mention?

If you're worried about this, consider a copy and paste from notepad.
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