This is the guy that created bittorrent, btw. I know that was a long time ago, but he's not just some random blogger.
99% of people here dont know what is bittorrent. but they can vibe it :)
The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
211–220 of 555 posts
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#212It’s truly strange that people keep citing the quality of Claude code’s leaked source as if it’s proof vibe coding doesn’t work. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. It shows that you can build a crazy popular & successful product while violating all the traditional rules about “good” code.
Not AI but perfect example is Cloudflare. They have implemented public suffix list (to check if a domain is valid) 10 different times in 10 different ways. In one place, they have even embedded the list in frontend (pages custom domain). You report issues, they fix that one service, their own stuff isn't even aware that it exists in other places.
Meta has four different implementations of the same page to create a “page” for your business… which is required to be able to advertise on any of their services.
Each one is broken, doesn’t have working error handling, and prevents you from giving them money. They all exist to insert the same record somewhere. Lost revenue, and they seem to have no idea.
Amazons flagship ios app has had at least three highly visible bugs, for years. They’re like thorns in my eye sockets, every time I use it. They don’t care.
These companies are working with BILLIONS of dollars in engineering resources, unlimited AI resources, and with massive revenue effects for small changes.
Sometimes the world just doesn’t make sense.
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#213"Laughing" at how bad the code in Claude Code is really seems to be missing the forest for the trees. Anthropic didn't set out to build a bunch of clean code when writing Claude Code. They set out to make a bunch of money, and given CC makes in the low billions of ARR, is growing rapidly, and is the clear market leader, it seems they succeeded. Given this, you would think you'd would want to approach the strategy tha…
> That's pretty interesting, right? I'd love to be talking about that instead
So would I and a couple of others, but HNers don't want to have those kinds of conversations anymore.
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#214Vibe coders' argument* is that quality of code does not matter because LLMs can iterate much much faster then humans do.
Consider this overly simplified process of writing a logic to satisfy a requirement:
1. Write code
2. Verify
3. Fix
We, humans, know the cost of each step is high, so we come up various way to improve code quality and reduce cognitive burden. We make it easier to understand when we have to revisit.
On the other hand, LLMs can understand** a large piece of code quickly***, and in addition, compile and run with agentic tools like Claude Code at the cost of token****. Quality does not matter to vibe coders if LLMs can fill the function logic that satisfies the requirement by iterating the aforementioned steps quickly.
I don't agree with this approach and have seen too many things broken from vibe code, but perhaps they are right as LLMs get better.
* Anecdotal
** I see LLM as just a probabilistic function so it doesn't "reason" like humans do. It's capable of highly advanced problem solving yet it also fails at primitive task.
*** Relative to human
**** Cost of token I believe is relatively cheaper compared to a full-time engineer and it'll get cheaper over time.
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#215This is nearly as dumb as the post that "Claude code is useless because your home built "Slack App" won't be globally distributed, with multi-primary databases and redis cache layer... and won't scale beyond 50k users". As if 97% of web apps aren't just basic CRUD with some integration to another system if you are lucky. 99% of companies won't even have 50k users.
Distributing an app to 100 users inside an enterprise is already a hellish nightmare and I'm pretty convinced that citizen developers will never be a thing - we'll sooner reach the singularity.
Here's my take:
I think that citizen developers will be a thing--but not in the way you might be thinking.
More people will be enabled (and empowered) to "build" quick-and-dirty solutions to personal problems by just talking to their phone: "I need way to track my food by telling you what I ate and then you telling me how much I have left for today. And suggest what my next meal should be."
In the current paradigm--which is rapidly disappearing--that requires a UI app that makes you type things in, select from a list, open the app to see what your totals are, etc. And it's a paid subscription. In 6 months, that type of app can be ancient history. No more subscription.
So it's not about "writing apps for SaaS subscribers." It's about not needing to subscribe to apps at all. That's the disruption that's taking place.
Crappy code, maintenance, support, etc.--no longer even a factor. If the user doesn't like performance, they just say "fix ___" and it's fixed.
What subscription apps can't be replaced in this disruption? Tell me what you think.
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#216It looks vibe coding, or at AI coding in general, has been challenging a few empirical laws: - Brooks' No Silver Bullet: no single technology or management technique will yield a 10-fold productivity improvement in software development within a decade. If we write a spec that details everything we want, we would write soemthing as specific as code. Currently people seem to believe that a lot of the fundamentals are w…
> Kernighan's Law, which says debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Now people are increasingly believing that AI can debug way faster than human (most likely because other smart people have done similar debugging already). And in the worst case, just ask AI to rewrite the code. I thought you were gonna go the opposite direction with this. Debugging is now 100x as hard as writing the code…
> I thought you were gonna go the opposite direction with this. Debugging is now 100x as hard as writing the code in the first place.
100x harder if a human were to debug AI-generated code. I was merely citing other people's beliefs: AI can largely, if not completely, take care of debugging. And "better", rewrite the code altogether. I don't see how that could be a better approach, but that might just be me.
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#217[dead]
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#218It’s truly strange that people keep citing the quality of Claude code’s leaked source as if it’s proof vibe coding doesn’t work. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. It shows that you can build a crazy popular & successful product while violating all the traditional rules about “good” code.
I suspect if people saw the handwritten code of many, many, many products that they used every day they would be shocked. I've worked at BigCos and startups, and a lot of the terrible code that makes it to production was shocking when I first started. This isn't a dig at anyone, I've certainly shipped my share of bad code as well. Deadlines, despite my wishes sometimes, continue to exist. Sometimes you have to ship a…
This is the product that's claiming "coding is a solved problem" though.
I get a junior developer or a team of developers with varying levels of experience and a lot of pressure to deliver producing crummy code, but not the very tool that's supposed to be the state-of-the-art coder.
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#219It’s truly strange that people keep citing the quality of Claude code’s leaked source as if it’s proof vibe coding doesn’t work. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. It shows that you can build a crazy popular & successful product while violating all the traditional rules about “good” code.
"Wildly successful but unpolished product first-to-market with a new technology gets dethroned by a competitor with superior execution" is a story as old as tech.
Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok
#220Where is the evidence that people are obsessed with one-shotting and not doing the iterative back-and-forth, prompt-and-correct system he describes here? It feels like he is attacking a strawman.