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Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

nytimes.com

211–220 of 369 posts

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because intent isn't something that you can acquire from the actions of third parties Second, the VAST majority of guns in the US sit in gun safes and closets and never shoot anyone. Finally, shooting someone is not necessarily an illegal action -- gun manufacturers market their products for self defense or sporting reasons -- I have never seen one market their products for use in criminal acts.

Well, I have never seen Cox advertising their internet cable as a way to download pirated movies, but here we are.

Yes, exactly. As the ruling states:

> Cox neither induced its users’ infringement nor provided a service tailored to infringement; accordingly, Cox is not contributorily liable for the infringement of Sony’s copyrights

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#212
post #31

A tiny victory. Copyright should not be more than a decade. This intellectual property system is one of the worst things to happen in modern society is what I would have said a few years ago, now I got bigger problems but I'm still mad.

I'm not sure I agree that any single fixed term makes sense. Rather, I think it'd be better if the exponential cost to society (in terms of works that don't happen, and works that don't happen based on those works that didn't happen and so on compounding) was just part of the yearly renewal price. Do maybe everyone gets 7 years flat to start with, then it costs $100*1.3^(year). So after another 25 years it'd be aroun…

An adversarial approach would also be interesting: People could open positions of "I would buy a right to use this copyright for $XYZ if it was released today"

So the copyright holder would have the option to EITHER cashout at any point (and consider the work/invested effort paid) OR counter-bid the sum of everyone to keep it.

Not sure about the implications, but it would encourage the most (economically) productive route

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#213
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ruling said that they don’t have to. Going with your point, it does not say they can’t monitor and then sell the list of pirates to Sony/etc. for some extra income. They just didn’t like doing it for free.

Yes, but then the question becomes: which tactics does MPAA and the like will now resort to. Because we know they won't exactly say 'I guess that's it then'.

The MPAA has limited options given they aren’t any sort of government entity with any real enforcement power. All they can do is keep suing as they hope for a different outcome and/or try new forms of DRM.

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#214

A tiny victory. Copyright should not be more than a decade. This intellectual property system is one of the worst things to happen in modern society is what I would have said a few years ago, now I got bigger problems but I'm still mad.

Disagree on the decade. There are plenty of examples of great movies or other works that took longer than a decade to bring to the public. Those projects would have been completely non-viable if their content could have been stolen after creators put a decade into their development. I think 25 or even 50 years is more defensible. But 100? Nah. But the crushing problem today for many of us here is SOFTWARE PATENTS. Th…

We should do a split system where its like life of artist or 25 years, whichever is longer. Seems like a good balance for the artists estate too.

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#215

Funnily enough the only time I ever got in trouble for torrenting anything was when Cox was my ISP circa 2009. I'd been torrenting some PSP game and my connection went down. When I called the helpline they explained what happened and said they'd restore access once I confirmed I'd deleted the downloaded file.

Lol. Did they force you to pinky swear that you'd deleted it?

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#216
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lower court found the Betamax maker liable because the tape recorder was “not suitable for any substantial noninfringing use” and infringement “was either the most conspicuous use or the major use of the Betamax product.” I don't know anyone who sold television recordings, it was always for personal use. How could the lower court get this so wrong? Was this just one uninformed judge? Or was this actually less c…

The Ninth Circuit court of appeals understood correctly what the primary use of Betamax would be, but they believed that personal home recording was not fair use, and was thus copyright infringement. They interpreted the law as only allowing libraries to record TV or radio broadcasts. The Supreme Court ruling for this case found that time-shifting was fair use, but only by a narrow 5-4 margin. Fair use could have gon…

This speaks to first principles. I don't want judges making law - and any good judge doesn't want to make law. Laws are from elected legislatures. Of course this is all wishful thinking.

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree on the decade. There are plenty of examples of great movies or other works that took longer than a decade to bring to the public. Those projects would have been completely non-viable if their content could have been stolen after creators put a decade into their development. I think 25 or even 50 years is more defensible. But 100? Nah. But the crushing problem today for many of us here is SOFTWARE PATENTS. Th…

We should do a split system where its like life of artist or 25 years, whichever is longer. Seems like a good balance for the artists estate too.

The usual way to do that is to have renewals or other periods; then things that are abandoned fall out of copyright, but things that the author is alive to protect remain in.

It's moderately hard to build a law based on what people think is "fair" mainly because fairness often has more to do with feelings (it would be fair for someone to make a Hobbit movie because the author is long dead; it would be unfair for someone to make a Potter movie because the author is alive, etc) than with an easily quantifiable rule.

I've often thought the solution is to define copyright (of things published, not trade secrets and unpublished works) as being something that can ONLY be defended as long as the work is "available" in the marketplace for "reasonable" amounts. As long as Warner Bros or whoever it is keeps selling the Lord of the Rings (extended edition) on DVD or whatever, they can j'accuse infringers of downloading it.

But ten years after it's no longer in print? No longer in copyright, either.

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#218
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I like the idea, but I can't help wondering if it would have unforeseen consequences. Could this approach undermine the protections afforded by open-source licenses? (IANAL.)

> I think I like the idea, but I can't help wondering if it would have unforeseen consequences. As I said in a sibling comment, quickie comments on HN should be taken more as mental stimulation and kickoff points for further discussion as opposed to "final bill that has been revised in committee and is going to the floor for a full vote". The details of implementation are certainly critical, and not trivial either! I…

> quickie comments on HN should be taken more as mental stimulation and kickoff points for further discussion

Indeed.

Setting aside variable details like time frames and cost structures which can be debated separately, what I found interesting about your suggestion is it's a mechanism to create an escalating incentive for copyright holders to relinquish copyrights even sooner than the standard copyright period. Currently, no matter what the term length, it costs nothing to sit on a copyright until it expires - so everyone does - even if they never do anything with the copyright. And the copyright exists even if the company goes bankrupt or the copyright holder dies. Thus we end up with zombie copyrights which keep lurking in the dark for works which are almost certainly abandon-ware or orphan-ware simply because our current system defaults to one-and-done granting of "life of the inventor + 70 years" for everything.

Obviously, we should dramatically shorten the standard copyright length but no matter what we shorten it to (10, 15, 20 yrs etc) we should consider requiring some recurring renewal before expiration as a separate idea. Even if it's just paying a small processing fee and sending in simple DIY form, it sets the do-nothing-default to "auto-expire" for things the inventor doesn't care about (and may even have forgotten about). That's a net benefit to society we should evaluate separately from debates about term lengths.

I see your suggestion about automatically escalating the cost of recurring renewal as another separate layer worth considering on its own merits. My guess would be just requiring any recurring renewal would cause around half of all copyrights to auto-expire before reaching their full term - even if the renewal stayed $10. The idea of having recurring renewal costs escalate, regardless of when the escalation kicks in, or how much it escalates, is a mechanism which could achieve even more net positive societal benefits by increasing the incentive to relinquish copyrights sooner.

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#219

A tiny victory. Copyright should not be more than a decade. This intellectual property system is one of the worst things to happen in modern society is what I would have said a few years ago, now I got bigger problems but I'm still mad.

I think for Music / Movies / Shows, sure, for Software? Probably not so simple.

Some would argue software shouldn't be copyrightable at all.

And their arguments aren't entirely without merit, either.

Hard to make them on a site dedicated to selling software and its byproducts, perhaps.

Re: Supreme Court Sides with Cox in Copyright Fight over Pirated Music

#220
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were right. I never sold a taped VCR, but my parents used it to time shift Saturday morning cartoons every week.

Time shifting for personal use is expressly legal (making a personal copy). It was also an early form of ad-blocking, because a VHS recorder could stop recording at a set time, thus skip a block of commercials, and then continue. There were suits about that, too.

The Betamax case that GP mentions is the same case that established that time-shifting is not copyright infringment. The law and courts were previously both mute on the subject.
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