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How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

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Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#211
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that new one is not an i3, not even in spirit. The original i3 was super light, quirky, fun, innovative in so many ways. They just didn't sell enough. People wanted more boring cars.

It was also $50k for a car that only got 120-150mi of range. It was a joke car. The reason it didn’t sell well is because it was a compliance car, not because it didn’t innovative. If it had a reasonable range (say, Chevy Bolt 200-250ish) in all electric for the same price, I bet it would have sold much much better.

I have an i3 though and the range is perfect for my use. Town, school, office etc. I just put it on charge when I get back, or the next day.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#212

Gas pumps in the US are artificially capped at 10 gallons per minute, and a gallon of gasoline is about 33kWh, so petrol cars in the US “charge” at 330kWh/min ~= 20MW. But most cars only turn about a third of that into motion, so let’s say 7MW equivalent? While BYD’s 1.5MW is amazing, it seems a stretch to call it “almost as fast as gas pumps.” Diesel pumps for trucks typically pump much faster too. And diesel is nea…

I think you are 3 orders of magnitude off in your airplane energy calculation.

3,168,750kWh = 3 GWh

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#213
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not paying our fair share, the issue is paying more than we would if we drove gas vehicles. Perhaps in Washington State that is your issue, but that is not what we are discussing here. The poster I was replying to lives in Alberta, and your experience in an entirely different country, in that state, has nothing to do with what they pay. Or whether what they pay is fair. And this point was not raised as a…

Most states and provinces I think have already applied a flat yearly registration fee surcharge to make up for lost gas tax revenue.

Most states and provinces I think have already applied a flat yearly registration fee surcharge to make up for lost gas tax revenue

Indeed. No one is contesting that. So what is your point?

In as you are leveling some sort of complaint against a flat tax, are you attempting to claim that any tax is unfair? If so, why?

Let's look at Alberta:

https://www.alberta.ca/electric-vehicle-tax-claims

Here, it states the yearly fee is $200.

Now let's compare to gas taxes in Alberta:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada

So about 50 cents per litre for both federal and provincial gas tax, which disappears if you charge at home. And yes, the federal tax counts, as the federal government transfers funds to the provinces from that tax, and to municipalities, and also gives additional grants to municipalities from that tax.

All which vanishes without a gas tax.

So that's around 1/3 to 1/2 of the price you pay at the pump.

Municipalities also sometimes add additional tax.

All said?

A good average for gas tank size might be 50 litres. Gas prices are typically over $1.20 / litre. So maybe $70 per fillup, which seems fair. Let's just pick $30 in tax per fillup.

I'm being generous here, as most EVs are as heavy as a truck, and cause more road damage than a gas car. And I'll also be more generous, and just say $20 per fillup in lost tax.

This figure, $20, is way below the actual lost tax. I expect this to be more like $50 lost per fillup, with the above logic (weight of vehicle, use of taxes, local taxes).

So with this extremely generous number of $20 per fillup, a yearly registration of $200, is the same as 10 tanks of gas of travel per year.

Or less than one fillup per month for a gas car.

This is obviously meant to be an average, and there are people which drive 200km per day. Others may almost never drive, but that's how averages work.

I have a very, very hard time seeing this as unfair.

I feel it is very, very low compared to what is collected from the gas tax currently.

The only other option is to have odometers inspected yearly, and a tax levied on actual distance driven. In as the tax is very very very generous, and only 40% of what I suspect the actual loss to be, very very very low at $200, few would be better off with a tax on actual distance driven.

Not to mention, a yearly inspection would have additional costs (re: taxes) for the whole administrative framework to do so.

All in all, Albertans seem to be paying far less than people driving gas cars, in tax.

But of course, you did the math before complaining about Alberta flat gas tax, right?

So if so, what is your complaint with this flat tax?

That some people might be buying at $50k CDN car, and only drive it less than 400km per month, and so unfairly pay? Because that's the equivalent tax being levied here.

I'll be very blunt. I find such complaints to be frivolous.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#214
post #191
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely does not take an hour if you have an 800v car and an 800v EA station. Can’t speak highly enough about lucid, but their current offerings are definitely not for the budget conscious, but that should change soon.

I have as far as I'm aware the cheapest 800v car on sale in the US (Hyundai Ioniq 5) and in the right weather conditions a 20-80% charge is legitimately 10 minutes. The weather conditions do unfortunately matter. Travelling during the post-Christmas blizzard last year was very much less than ideal. The battery heaters in my car could not keep up with how bitterly cold and windy it was and I had multiple 30-45 minute…

Now (in China) there are also cars with sodium-ion batteries, instead of lithium-ion batteries.

Sodium-ion batteries have the disadvantage of a worse energy per weight ratio, but they also have an advantage (besides the fact that they will become cheaper when their production will be more mature): they work much better at low temperatures, not losing capacity or charging speed until minus 40 Celsius degrees.

Therefore, they may become preferable in colder climates, where they will not have the problems described by you.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#215
Look range is not a huge issue if it is reliably above 200miles. This means that the 60% of that (120miles) covers your typical max commuting radius, and 80% of that the time you typically you would need a toilet break (3-4 hours).

My old gas guzzler had a 180-250 miles of range, and I did not have range anxiety (I did have gas cost anxiety tho)

The issue always was speed of charging and abundance of chargers. Today things are a bit better as you can find 200kW chargers on the big highways. But still they are not abundant, you need to plan.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#216
post #60

I have a feeling that half the reason they're doing this is that they don't have a good idea how to increase energy efficiency. Case in point: 2026 BMW i3 - 900km WLTP from a 108kWh battery. 2026 Denza Z9 GT - 800km WLTP from a 122kWh pack. The former charges at a maximum of 400kW, while the latter at over twice that which saves... about 10 minutes at the charger after 450km of driving(12 vs 22 minutes approx). Many…

> 2026 BMW i3 - 900km WLTP from a 108kWh battery. I had to do a double take: remembering the i3s as the little almost SmartCar-sized EVs. Great cars, I still see a few around here, but I couldn't imagine them extending the range of those to 900km! Turns out they just released the i3 sedan, which is like a 3-series. And good to see they're making the design similar between the new 3-series and the new i3. I like the i…

They also have an iX3 SUV, if reusing i3 isn't confusing enough.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#217

Gas pumps in the US are artificially capped at 10 gallons per minute, and a gallon of gasoline is about 33kWh, so petrol cars in the US “charge” at 330kWh/min ~= 20MW. But most cars only turn about a third of that into motion, so let’s say 7MW equivalent? While BYD’s 1.5MW is amazing, it seems a stretch to call it “almost as fast as gas pumps.” Diesel pumps for trucks typically pump much faster too. And diesel is nea…

99.9% of use cases of EVs can charge at home/work/shop, don't need separate infrastructure, logistics and supply chains for delivery of electricity. There is a very small fraction of EV trips that need charging on the go. The vast majority of trips are under 3 (or 5 miles).

> 99.9% of use cases of EVs can charge at home/work/shop

This is yet again a very US-centric view where you assume people are living in house with a garage.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#218

Based on the figures here, they’re claiming around 400 miles of range added in 300 seconds (60% of the full 677 mile range); contrast this with around 100 seconds for a typical gas pump (8 gal/min) and typical efficiency (30 mpg). It suggests that you’d need around 5MW chargers to truly get to the speed of a gas pump. On the other hand, 5 minutes is already a huge improvement over 15-30 minutes, and it’s fast enough…

5mins is really as good as it has to be. Almost everyone needs a bathroom break or gets a drink/snack after 400miles.

I sometimes spend 3-5 minutes washing all the windows. But I do dream of making F1-style pit stops on my cross-country treks.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99.9% of use cases of EVs can charge at home/work/shop, don't need separate infrastructure, logistics and supply chains for delivery of electricity. There is a very small fraction of EV trips that need charging on the go. The vast majority of trips are under 3 (or 5 miles).

> 99.9% of use cases of EVs can charge at home/work/shop This is yet again a very US-centric view where you assume people are living in house with a garage.

Even in the US, only 63% of households have a garage or carport.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, it doesn't have to be 5 minutes - even 10-15 would be enough - but current chargers don't get anywhere close to that My car has a 83 kWh battery and charges at 150 kW, which, for 20% to 80% (what you want to generally do on a trip) means 20 minutes. 20 minutes of charge gets me 300 km, and I generally definitely want to stop for 20 minutes every 300 km or so. I don't see how that's not "anywhere close" to 15.

I don't think RevEng was saying it is impossible to do technically. I believe they were saying the charging infrastructure near their home makes it impossible to do practically as the chargers are often limited to 50-100kW. Aging Wheels did a video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouPiwt5hxXQ

Ahh I see, thanks. Here in Greece chargers are pretty good, though not very many still.
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