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LLMs can be exhausting

tomjohnell.com

211–220 of 232 posts

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#211
I've been using Claude Code within VS Code for the most part... it's funny, but from time to time, I forget to click the Claude icon, and start interacting with the default GitHub copilot on the side. I tend to find myself quickly frustrated with the interactions only to realize I wasn't working with Claude/Opus. As soon as I switch, I'm almost always back on track within 10-30 minutes.

That said, it helps to be in tune with your own body and mind. You need breaks now and then and with AI interactions, you will be "ON" more than just working through problems on your own. The AI can work through the boilerplate that lets your mind rest at a relatively blazing pace, leaving you to evaluate and iterate relatively quickly. You will find yourself more "worn out" from the constant thinking faster.

IIRC most people burn out after 4-6 hours of heavy thought work... take a long meal break, then consider getting back into it or not. Identify when it's okay to stop for the day... you may be getting good progress, but if you aren't in the right mindset it's you that may well be introducing mistakes into things.

Beyond this, I tend to plan/track things in TODO.md files as I work/plan through things... keeping track of what needs to be done, combined with history, and even the "why" along the way... AI makes it easy to completely swap out a backend library pretty quickly, especially with a good testing surface in place. But it helps to track why you're doing certain things... why you're making the changes you are on a technical level.

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#212

Reminds me of the best saying I ever got from my CS professor. She would make us first write out our code and answer the question, "What will the output be?" before we were allowed to run it. "If you don't know what you want your code to do, the computer sure as heck won't know either." I keep this with me today. Before I run my code for the first time or turn on my hardware for the first time, I ask myself, "What _e…

This is a restatement of the old wisdom that to safely use a tool you must be 10% smarter than it is." Or stated differently, you must be "ahead" of the tool (capable of accurately modeling and predicting the outcome), not "behind" (only reacting). TDD is kind of an outgrowth of it. I've lived by the wisdom, but admit that for me there is a lot of fun in the act of verifying hypotheses in the course of development, even in the "test case gap" when you're writing the lines of code that don't make a difference in terms of making a long term test case go from red to green, or doing other exploratory work where the totality of behavior is not well charted. Those times are the best. "Moodily scowling at the computer screen again," has been a status update from chilluns on what I'm doing more times than I like to admit.

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#213
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The velocity is up AND the quality is up. This is not my experience on a team of experienced SWEs working on a product worth 100m/year. Agents are a great search engine for a codebase and really nice for debugging but anytime we have it write feature code it makes too many mistakes. We end up spending more time tuning the process than it takes to just write the code AND you are trading human context with agent cont…

Whenever actual studies are made about LLM coding they always show that LLM coding is a net loss in quality and delivery speed. (They are good as coder psychotherapy tho.)

Well, things are changing so fast those studies are going to be out of date. And I have no doubt some people are experiencing a net loss while others are not. We need to pry apart why some people are having success with it and others aren't, and build on top of what's working.

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever actual studies are made about LLM coding they always show that LLM coding is a net loss in quality and delivery speed. (They are good as coder psychotherapy tho.)

Well, things are changing so fast those studies are going to be out of date. And I have no doubt some people are experiencing a net loss while others are not. We need to pry apart why some people are having success with it and others aren't, and build on top of what's working.

Sounds a lot like "software engineering".

Wasn't AI supposed to free us from all that and let us fire all those useless coders?

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#216
post #3

I find LLMs so much more exhausting than manual coding. It’s interesting. I think you quickly bump into how much a single human can feasibly keep track of pretty fast with modern LLMs. I assume until LLMs are 100% better than humans in all cases, as long as I have to be in the loop there will be a pretty hard upper bound on what I can do and it seems like we’ve roughly hit that limit. Funny enough, I get this feeling…

Classic coding was the process of incrementally saying "Ah, I'm getting it!" -- as your compile your code and it works better each time, you get a little dopamine hit from "solving" the puzzle. This creates states where time can pass with great alacrity as we enter these little dopamine induced trances we call "flow", which we all experience.

AI is not that, it's a casino. Every time you put words into the prompt you're left with a cortisol spike as you hope the LLM lottery gives you a good answer. You get a little dopamine spike when it does, but it's not the same as when you do it yourself because it's punctuated by anxiety, which is addictive but draining. And I personally have never gotten into a state of LLM-induced "flow", but maybe others have and can explain that experience. But to me there's too much anxiety around the LLM from the randomness of what it produces.

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#217

I've found LLMs to be liberating and energizing, not at all exhausting. I can finally do my preferred workflow: Research, (design, critique), (plan, critique, design), implement. Design and planning has a quick enough turnaround cycle to not get annoying. By the time the agent is writing code, I have no involvement anymore. Just set it and forget it, come back in half an hour or so to see if it's done yet. Meanwhile,…

I ran go's deadcode against your repo, it says there are 44 unreachable functions. If you add guardrails like static analysis tools to a pre-commit you can make LLMs tighten things up.

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#218
Current state of my workflow: (your feedback is welcome, I'm an autodidact and have been self-teaching myself thus far) I also think my workflow addresses some of the pain points the OP mentioned.

If a problem is a continuation of the current or other chat, switch to it. If it is a new problem or sub-problem requiring something more extensive than a tiny refactor, a new chat is started.

From there,

Start in Ask mode. Ask about existing code I'm trying to modify. If I am interfacing with someone else's code, that is put in reach of the project and ask questions about how it produces certain results or what a function does. Ask the foundational 'bottom-up' questions, how does this work? what routine produces x? Call out specific external sources from the web if it contains relevant information, like an API. Iterate until I feel I have a grasp of what I can build with. Not only does this help me comprehend the boundaries in terms of existing capability and/or shortcomings, it seeds the context.

Move to Plan mode. Provide a robust problem statement and incorporate findings from the Ask into the problem statement, and what the desired output is. Throw in some guard rails to narrow the search path used by the LLM as it seeks the solution. Disqualify certain approaches if necessary. If the LLMs plan isn't aligned with my goals, or I remember that thing I skipped, I amend the plan. The plan prompt I typed is saved to a blank file in the text editor.

Implement.

Validate. If it works, great. Read the code and approve each change, usually I speed read this.

If it doesn't work, I tell the LLM the difference between the expected and actual result and instruct it to instrument the code to produce trace output. Then feed the trace output back into it with explanations of where the output doesn't match my expectations (often times revealing weaknesses in my problem statement). Sometimes when it is a corner case that is problematic, several iterations are required then screen for regressions. If I reach the point where I know I screwed up the planning prompt, I trash the changeds, then I revise the copypasta saved earlier and start a new Planning session.

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tactical process of writing the code is also when you discover the errors in your design. Like, did we think waterfall suddenly works now just because typing can be automated? No.

Who says you can't iterate on a design just because an LLM does the manual typing?

I meant to write “tactile”, not “tactical”, but missed it before the edit window expired.

Anecdotally, ask people who knit whether their brain is stimulated. Physically engaging with the thing you are making is part of the process that makes it actually good.

Re: LLMs can be exhausting

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hehe, speak for yourself- as a 1x coder on a good day, having a nonjudgmental partner who can explain stuff to me is one of the best parts of writing with an llm :)

I like that aspect of it too. LLM never seems to get offended even when I tell it its wrong. Just trying to understand why some people say it can feel exhausting. Instead of focusing on narrowly defined coding tasks, the work has changed and you are responsible for a much larger area of work, and expectations are similarly higher. You're supposed to produce 10x code now.

Not sure if it's what you're talking about but I had a coworker trying to break into eSports and he talked a lot about the micro vs macro skills a game requires. Sounds like we all have an aimbot for programming so the competition has shifted hard towards the macro. That could definitely be tiring.
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