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Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

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Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#211

Post by reliablereason »

The amount of people that seam to react negatively to living brain cells doing the computation is unexpected to me.

I do understand where it comes from to some extent.. some idea that human cells are special i guess, but it seams very naive to me. We spawn, use and kill far more complex AI agents millions if not billions of times every second in this society.

No one gives a shit, as those intelligences are not "real" or whatever.. or they are not "conscious" but conscious is a fictional word without an actual definition. In the end i think it comes down to suffering.

No one knows if some internal part in a LLM is suffering just as no one knows if a cell culture with brain cells like this can suffer.

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#212

Post by jurgenburgen »

Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #208
fgfarben wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's something troubling to me about taking any living thing and wiring its senses up to a profoundly incomplete simulacrum of reality. How do we communicate this to the engineers at YouTube who refuse to make an offramp for children from the infinite baby shark AI video loop?

> How do we communicate this to the engineers at YouTube who refuse to make an offramp for children from the infinite baby shark AI video loop? Actually I have a thought which I'd like to share. Why don't we upload good quality/human-curated children media to archive.org and create a more human curated platform instead of shark AI video and we can upload videos for free on archive.org right now. The issue seems to be…

Children should simply not be on YouTube (Kids or not). We don’t need a “safer” alternative for damaging their cognitive development.

Just because there’s demand for something doesn’t mean it should be legal to supply.

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#213

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

jurgenburgen wrote: post #212
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do we communicate this to the engineers at YouTube who refuse to make an offramp for children from the infinite baby shark AI video loop? Actually I have a thought which I'd like to share. Why don't we upload good quality/human-curated children media to archive.org and create a more human curated platform instead of shark AI video and we can upload videos for free on archive.org right now. The issue seems to be…

Children should simply not be on YouTube (Kids or not). We don’t need a “safer” alternative for damaging their cognitive development. Just because there’s demand for something doesn’t mean it should be legal to supply.

> We don’t need a “safer” alternative for damaging their cognitive development.

By Safer, I meant like some educational content or shows which are genuinely good fwiw. So I grew up watching Adventure Time on Cartoon Network. So curating shows like those and channels say veritasium or some Vsauce videos.

My question was that, can there not be a human volunteer curated group effort to find some decent channels from Youtube which are nice/safe for kids.

Calling the whole of youtube channels as bad might be unwise as well and mix some of it with cartoons and just having an archive/tag designed for it so that either an app or even you yourself could look at the archive tags and see which channels the videos are from and cartoons and just a more collective human effort into making a small library of things that are safe for kids?

Because kids will watch Youtube someday and they will hear about it from their friends and feel left out. You then trust that something like YT kids might work only to realize that it doesn't. Even something like rss list of those channels with something like freetube could be good as well fwiw.

What do you even recommend that people watch? I used to watch cartoon network for many hours growing up watching shows like beyblade and pokemon and Adventure Time etc. but it seems that cartoon network itself is nowadays struggling compared to Youtube kids :/

there definitely should be more to why/how Youtube kids is so prevalent. one can say bad parenting but I have seen good parents slip up in this case. They think its harmless. There's defintiely more to it (imho)

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#214

Post by plomme »

echelon wrote: post #138
sd9 wrote: post #102

If this can be taken at face value... it's creepy. I get that they're doing it for the meme. But perhaps something getting close to human intelligence, made out of human cells, shouldn't be forced to play a violent video game without any alternative options? Does 'the meme' justify that? I dunno. Nothing against violent games myself. Just feels like it's starting to get quite questionable, ethically speaking.

> it's creepy. It's awesome. People's ick around bodies, which are machines , have always held us back. It wasn't until we started cutting them open that modern medicine was developed. We might have brain uploads already had we not been so averse to sticking brains with electrodes. I'll go further: had we not been so scared of cloning, we'd probably have cured cancer and every major ailment if we'd begun cloning mono…

I don't think anyone objects to curing cancer and better figuring out how our bodies work, but getting into conciousness/ mind uploads/ simulated humans is another can of worms ethically speaking. I'm assuming you've already read the fantastic story about Lena by qntm [1], if not, enjoy some existensial dread.

[1] https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#217

Post by drzaiusx11 »

vercaemert wrote: post #96
birdsongs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked into it. They're not feeding the framebuffer to the neurons, but have a "signal" when an enemy is on screen to some of the tissue's inputs, and how to locate it in the x/y axis, and have outputs for the character to turn right or left or fire. It's "see this input signal, send these output signals", which seems consistent with the title. It seems they grow the neural tissue on a chip the neurons can interfac…

see the open worm project to get an idea of what artificial neuronal architecture requires to express anything meaningful. (and an interesting ethical perspective on digital consciousness.) my point being that the number of neurons is fairly meaningless. you could take neuron models and link them circuit-style to play doom at the 10^2 scale if you wanted. from a cellular neurophysiological perspective, there's nothin…

I support further research along the lines of what is being done with neurons here, however, I don't think we quite know enough about consciousness or general self awareness (and how it comes about) yet to make sweeping generalizations saying there's _nothing_ to worry about. Proceeding with caution is always warranted when the stakes involve living organisms in my book.

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#218

Post by drzaiusx11 »

w4der wrote: post #197
hellzbellz123 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could see the current admin using this as some sort of sick workaround to ethics. Not that they seem to care in the first place

Keep in mind that this is an Australian startup, and they already have some publications out on the ethics of doing this.

If you have any of those publication details handy, a link or citation would be helpful.

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#219

Post by drzaiusx11 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #137
sd9 wrote: post #102

If this can be taken at face value... it's creepy. I get that they're doing it for the meme. But perhaps something getting close to human intelligence, made out of human cells, shouldn't be forced to play a violent video game without any alternative options? Does 'the meme' justify that? I dunno. Nothing against violent games myself. Just feels like it's starting to get quite questionable, ethically speaking.

>But perhaps something getting close to human intelligence this isn't getting close to human intelligence. They're using about as many cells as a fruit fly has (of course not actually functioning like an animal brain) processing signals to play Doom. The treatment of a single farm chicken is about a few magnitudes more worrying than this. I'm sorry to tell you that you're made out of human cells and I don't think you…

At 200k, this application is already more neurons than a fruit fly (130k), but still within the same order of magnitude. It's an interesting question of "how many" should be considered problematic from an ethics standpoint, and I don't think that line of questioning should be ignored. If any of this research turns out useful, you can be sure to see it scale up.

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#220

Post by idiotsecant »

Retric wrote: post #76
bondarchuk wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200k now, reasonably speaking a few million is within reach, which is reptile/fish range, the terrifying thing is though that if they train this to imitate humans (which they will) who knows how many orders of magnitude of efficiency gains you get (in terms of neurons needed for a certain level of consciousness) versus natural organisms that are dependent on natural evolution and need to support other bodily function…

It seems unlikely that we would be more efficient at achieve consensus than evolution which can hand craft neural structures via feedback loops across millions of generations. Especially when this demo needs 200k neurons when organizations with vastly fewer neurons have more complex behaviors.

We already know we can be more efficient than evolution at many tasks. Pelicans after all never developed jet turbines. We may not be able to access a simulation space as vast as evolution does but for small solution spaces we do quite well.
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