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TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

bbc.com

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Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#211

Post by dijit »

gorgoiler wrote: post #174

I don’t really understand how we are supposed to believe in e2ee in closed proprietary apps. Even if some trusted auditor confirms they have plumbed in libsignal correctly, we have no way of knowing that their rendering code is free of content scanning hooks. We know the technology exists. Apple had it all polished and ready to go for image scanning. I suppose the only thing in which we can place our faith is that it…

I've been making this argument for a long time, and it's never popular.

People want to believe in E2EE, it's almost like religion at this point.

Protecting people is synonymous with E2EE, even if you cant verify it, and it can be potentially broken.

I was even more controversial and singled out Signal as an example: https://blog.dijit.sh/i-don-t-trust-signal/

Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#212

Post by khalic »

roncesvalles wrote: post #202
khalic wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, saying that e2e encryption makes users _less_ safe is completely dishonest, nothing is fine about this. The logic of "anything is better than before" is also fallacious.

Depends on your definition of "safe". Imagine an adult DMs a nude photo to a minor (or other kinds of predation). If it's E2EE, no one except the sender and receiver know about this conversation. You want an MITM in this case to detect/block such things or at least keep record of what's going on for a subpoena. I agree that every messaging platform in the world shouldn't be MITM'd, but every messaging platform doesn'…

Keeping children safe and prosecuting are too different concepts, only vaguely related. So no, being able to track pdfs doesn't make children safer. What keeps them safe is teaching them safe communication habits and keeping them away from things like Tiktok.

We shouldn't make the world a worse place for every one because some parents can't take care of their children.

Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#213

Post by Ekaros »

Galanwe wrote: post #190
ThoAppelsin wrote: post #77

DMs are akin to private conversations in real life. Thus, every DM feature should entail E2EE. It’s ok for a platform to not feature private conversations. They should just have no DM feature at all, then; make all messages publicly visible. Private conversations are indeed not for all ages. Parents should be able to grant access to that on individual basis.

I fail to see the link between private conversations/DM and E2EE. To quote a comment I made some time ago: - You can call your service e2e encrypted even if every client has the same key bundled into the binary, and rotate it from time to time when it's reversed. - You can call your service e2e encrypted even if you have a server that stores and pushes client keys. That is how you could access your message history on…

Fundamentally actual E2EE is complicated problem. And probably not very user friendly. It is full of technical trade-offs. And mistakes are very common. Or they lead to situations that people do not want. Like if you lost your phone or it break how do you get history back... What if you also forgot password? Or it was stored in local manager...

It is phrase that sounds good. But actually doing it effectively in way that average user understand and can use system with it with minimal effort is very hard.

Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#214

Post by michaelmior »

shakna wrote: post #208
roncesvalles wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of "safe". Imagine an adult DMs a nude photo to a minor (or other kinds of predation). If it's E2EE, no one except the sender and receiver know about this conversation. You want an MITM in this case to detect/block such things or at least keep record of what's going on for a subpoena. I agree that every messaging platform in the world shouldn't be MITM'd, but every messaging platform doesn'…

The receiver has a proven and signed bundle, that they can upload to the abuse report. So the evidence has even stronger weight. They can already decrypt the message, they can still report it.

Yes, but this leaves the only way to identify this behavior as by reporting from a minor. I'm not saying I trust TikTok to only do good things with access to DMs, but I think it's a fair argument in this scenario to say that a platform has a better opportunity to protect minors if messages aren't encrypted.

I'm not saying no E2E messaging apps should exist, but maybe it doesn't need to for minors in social media apps. However, an alternative could be allowing the sharing of the encryption key with a parent so that there is the ability for someone to monitor messages.

Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#215

Post by trashb »

philipallstar wrote: post #205
roncesvalles wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of "safe". Imagine an adult DMs a nude photo to a minor (or other kinds of predation). If it's E2EE, no one except the sender and receiver know about this conversation. You want an MITM in this case to detect/block such things or at least keep record of what's going on for a subpoena. I agree that every messaging platform in the world shouldn't be MITM'd, but every messaging platform doesn'…

Imagine Hamas are your government and want to figure out who's gay. You don't want a MITM in case they can do this. Pick your definition of safe.

In that case don't use Tiktok dm's to discuss your sexuality. I think it is strange that people feel like they have to be able to talk on sensitive topics over every interface they can get their hands on.

Similarly in "traditional" media you may not want to discuss such private conversation on a radio broadcast. Perhaps you would rather discuss it on the phone or over snail mail as there is more of an expectation of privacy on those medium.

Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#216

Post by Ekaros »

trashb wrote: post #210
londons_explore wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tiktok has private messaging, and it is used by hundreds of millions of people. IMO no consumer service should have private 1:1 messaging without e2e. Either only do public messaging (ie. Like a forum), or implement e2e.

In my experience most forums have private messaging. Additionally I think it is fine to say "we don't support e2ee". I prefer honesty to a bad (leaky) e2ee implementation, at least the user can make an informed choice.

I agree. At least take of "Yes messages are stored on our servers" is honest. And if they are accessed by anything else than limited subpoena is policy or legal issue.

Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#218

Post by miki123211 »

khalic wrote: post #201
Traster wrote: post #178

I think this is... fine? Am I just totally naive. I think it's fine to say "You don't really have privacy on this app" - as long as there are relatively good options of apps that do have privacy (and I think there are). TikTok is really a public by default type of social media, there's not much idea of mutual following or closed groups. So sure, you don't have privacy on tiktok, if you want it you can move to snapcha…

No, saying that e2e encryption makes users _less_ safe is completely dishonest, nothing is fine about this. The logic of "anything is better than before" is also fallacious.

It makes certain users less safe in certain situations.

E2E makes political activists and anti-chinese dissidents safer, at the cost of making children less safe. Whether this is a worthwhile tradeoff is a political, not technical decision, but if we claim that there are any absolutes here, we just make sure that we'll never be taken seriously by anybody who matters.

Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#219

Post by danlitt »

trashb wrote: post #215
philipallstar wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine Hamas are your government and want to figure out who's gay. You don't want a MITM in case they can do this. Pick your definition of safe.

In that case don't use Tiktok dm's to discuss your sexuality. I think it is strange that people feel like they have to be able to talk on sensitive topics over every interface they can get their hands on. Similarly in "traditional" media you may not want to discuss such private conversation on a radio broadcast. Perhaps you would rather discuss it on the phone or over snail mail as there is more of an expectation of…

> there is more of an expectation of privacy on those medium

What does the "p" in "pm" stand for?

Re: TikTok will not introduce end-to-end encryption, saying it makes users less safe

#220

Post by miki123211 »

philipallstar wrote: post #205
roncesvalles wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of "safe". Imagine an adult DMs a nude photo to a minor (or other kinds of predation). If it's E2EE, no one except the sender and receiver know about this conversation. You want an MITM in this case to detect/block such things or at least keep record of what's going on for a subpoena. I agree that every messaging platform in the world shouldn't be MITM'd, but every messaging platform doesn'…

Imagine Hamas are your government and want to figure out who's gay. You don't want a MITM in case they can do this. Pick your definition of safe.

This is fine if you have TLS encryption and the platform is not local.

Sure, they can fabricate some evidence and get access to your messages, in which case, valid point.

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