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GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

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Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#211
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are dependent on the AOSP releases (which Google develops) and on the manufacturer updates (and because GrapheneOS runs on Pixels, then it goes back to Google again).

I can understand relying on an OEM to provide hardware support for a given model - but I'm finding it hard to understand why they're unable to continue supporting a release just because the upstream removes support for something. I'm not even really sure what you mean by "manufacturer updates". The more I hear about this project, the less is sounds like an alternative OS and more it sounds like a thin skin around wha…

> why they're unable to continue supporting a release just because the upstream removes support for something.

If you have an EOL Pixel and a new major version of Android is released, Google will not port this new version of Android (and therefore AOSP) to it. So GrapheneOS would have to do it. GrapheneOS just say they don't have the resources to do that, so they follow the Google releases. Could you keep an EOL Pixel without receiving updates? Sure. But then it's not supported anymore, it's just outdated, insecure software.

> I'm not even really sure what you mean by "manufacturer updates".

There are the AOSP updates (which bring new features, but importantly in our case bring security fixes) that come from Google, but your phone is more than that. There is a bunch of hardware running in your phone and a bunch of firmwares exposing it. Say your camera, or your wifi module, etc. If there is a security issue in the firmware of the camera, then it won't be fixed in the AOSP codebase. You need the camera manufacturer to fix it and release a firmware, pass it to the phone manufacturer who will then deploy it on your phone.

Google split both of those concepts years ago in order to deploy Android updates faster and make everybody more secure, because manufacturers had a tendency to lag a lot. Some still do but the situation generally improved, I think. Anyway, you need to receive those security updates from your manufacturer because they are independent from Google.

> the less is sounds like an alternative OS and more it sounds like a thin skin around whatever shit Google throws out, to be honest.

If you think that AOSP is shit, then sure. I mean, if you think that the Linux kernel is shit, maybe you don't want to run a Linux distribution.

I personally think that AOSP is pretty great, and vastly superior to Linux on mobile (among other because it has a much better security model). I am not a big fan of Google being root on my phone (with Android and system apps like Play Services), which is something that GrapheneOS fixes (by making Play Services run like any other, unprivileged app). GrapheneOS is also adding privacy features, be it by proxying your location requests (so that they go through the GrapheneOS servers instead of directly to Google) or by adding features like "scopes", where you can choose exactly which contact you share with an app, for instance, or refuse Internet access to an app without breaking it (GrapheneOS will just make the app believe that it has the permission to access the internet but there is just no connection right now). And of course GrapheneOS hardens the system in terms of security (e.g. with a hardened malloc or memory tagging stuff that Apple recently introduced as well).

So yeah, it is relatively thin, because AOSP is a huge codebase. But it doesn't mean that it's worthless: this skin makes it more secure, more private, and for me more enjoyable than Android.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#212

Been using this for about a year on a p9 pro. It works very well. I hear the google tap to pay does not work, but I've never tried it. However Vipps with their tap to pay works fine. BankID works but not with biometric login, which some things require IIRC. And for some reason DnB private works fine, but you are not allowed in on the corp app. It's mind boggingly stupid that they lock down apps like this, when you ca…

> when you can just open the thing in a website anyway. I can use my bank on some linux distro Unfortunately not. I'm in the UK. Two of my personal banks, all four business banks that I need to use, and several credit cards, require authentication using their phone app to confirm login on their website. None of those I've seen are using TOTP or SMS, for which I could use a general security service. All use their own…

> require authentication using their phone app

And banks often have their apps region locked, so if you live abroad or have accounts in more than one country, you’re fucked.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#214
post #50

Many are complaining about banking app compatability, but I've never felt compelled to use anything other than my browser for banking. What's the big deal with the banking apps? Am missing out on some huge advantage here?

Depositing checks by taking a picture of them.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#215
post #204

And once you are on GrapheneOS, break free from your proprietary watch ecosystem and switch to GadgetBridge ( https://gadgetbridge.org/ ) I run a Thinkpad with NixOS and KDE, a Pixel 9 with GrapheneOS, and an Amazfit watch paired with GadgetBridge on my phone. It's a testament to the hard work of the FOSS maintainers of these projects, and the spirit of open source, that everything works flawlessly together without a…

> And once you are on GrapheneOS, break free from your proprietary watch ecosystem and switch to GadgetBridge Then switch back to Google/Apple after half a year when you discover that you can’t run - your banking app - any government app - the app required to access large sports events - the pandemic tracking app without which you can’t enter an airport - various other random apps because they ALL detect that you’re…

YMMV. I run sandboxed Google Play Services on GrapheneOS so almost every app works. My digital payments app works, and the same with most government apps I have tried. My private bank's app doesn't work, but I just use their website for the handful of times a year I need to access it.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the next best thing makes you think you are already achieving the "perfect solution" for what you think you care about, but in truth does not. I'm not a mobile phone security expert but my feeling is that in the case of GrapheneOS - which target is probably high-profile people at risk of state actors et similia attacks - a zero-day in the closed source firmware from Qualcomm will probably screw you anyway. I u…

fyi a Cell Site Simulator can masquerade as the legitimate telco operator and push type 0 messages to the handset. What that means is they can push malicious settings and configurations (Definitely) and probably malicious firmware to the handset at will. They don't need to code this, they buy the software packages from the usual suspects. Adversary simply needs to put a drt box or a hailstorm or what-not close enough…

I don’t have the source (I’ll have to try find it), but I read that the cell site simulators can work on 4G and earlier but don’t work on 5G. So one thing folks can do is set ur phone to use 5G networks only (unless ur stuck and then u can make it looser but be aware your less protected at that time).

I do this on iOS I’m sure it’s do-able on GrapheneOS and hopefully on Android too.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#218
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confused. GrapheneOS is not Android, it's an AOSP-based OS. > I'm not sure it's really breaking free when the first task to do is intall Google Play Services so your banking app works. sandboxed Google Play Services. It's an important difference.

What is the difference here between "Android" and "AOSP" (Android Open Source Project)?

AOSP is Android without the Google proprietary stuff (and without the manufacturer proprietary stuff, e.g. Samsung's). If you install bare AOSP, it will look like the Android on a Pixel phone, but the biggest difference you will see is that it won't have the Play Services or some Google apps.

If you want to be a certified Android system (like all Android manufacturers do), you have to port AOSP to your hardware, install the Play Services as a system app (giving Google root access), install the system apps you want (e.g. Samsung have their own UI, maybe their own camera, their own store that they want to be installed as system apps), pass some conformity tests by Google (Google wants to ensure that it's good enough to be called "Android") and pay a ton of money to Google for the licence.

But as an individual, you can just download the AOSP sources, build them and install them on your phone. It's AOSP, but not Android.

GrapheneOS is based on AOSP. /e/OS is based on LineageOS which is based on AOSP. Those are not Android systems, they are AOSP-based systems. In a way like Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian. Those are different layers. If you hate Canonical, it doesn't mean that you have to hate Debian, even though Canonical does contribute to software that runs in Debian (like the Linux kernel). The comparison is worth what it's worth, but I hope you get my point :-).

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#219
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GrapheneOS is not Android. It's AOSP-based.

You may be surprised to learn what that "A" stands for.

You may be surprised to realise that you actually don't understand the difference between AOSP and Android :-). See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47047167

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#220
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And once you are on GrapheneOS, break free from your proprietary watch ecosystem and switch to GadgetBridge Then switch back to Google/Apple after half a year when you discover that you can’t run - your banking app - any government app - the app required to access large sports events - the pandemic tracking app without which you can’t enter an airport - various other random apps because they ALL detect that you’re…

YMMV. I run sandboxed Google Play Services on GrapheneOS so almost every app works. My digital payments app works, and the same with most government apps I have tried. My private bank's app doesn't work, but I just use their website for the handful of times a year I need to access it.

Does NFC work with those digital payment apps on Graphene?
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